The essence of Dzogchen

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek ,

Stupid question maybe, but what would be the essence of the Dzogchen (Teachings)?


Mutsog Marro
KY

[Josef]

You are.

[kalden yungdrung]

You are.

Tashi delek,

We are ?

Mutsog Marro
KY

[asunthatneversets]

Can't really be captured in words. It's kinda like the taste of ginger or something.. You can describe it to the best of your ability; say it's sweet or strong.. But the description doesn't really convey the real taste. Or another analogy would be trying to describe the color blue to someone who was born blind and has never seen colors. To know the essence in dzogchen is to taste it, experience it, and then integrate that taste into every aspect of experience so it's embodied... But not "embodied"... The words get tricky!

There's other metaphors to describe the essence... A mirror is used, in that the quality of the mirror is to reflect but remain unscathed by that which it reflects. And that it doesn't hold it's reflections. Or a crystal ball is used too. The ball acts as an aperture through which light passes.. And it seems to have the colors of things which are around it "on it" or "in it" but really it just reflects it's surroundings and remains crystal clear and untouched.

So these metaphors attempt to describe your true nature, which is the essence of dzogchen. Other than that, all practices and teachings related to it are only to aid in you discovering this and maintaining it. But he's right up above. You're it... But not you as in the "the story" of you... Not who you take yourself to be.

[Josef]

You are.

Tashi delek,

We are ?

Mutsog Marro
KY

Yup.

[Malcolm]

Tashi delek ,

Stupid question maybe, but what be the essence of the Dzogchen (Teachings)?


Mutsog Marro
KY

Knowing your own state.

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,


Mind, as the non-ego centric mind would be the essence in Dzogchen.


Mutsog Marro
KY

[asunthatneversets]

Tashi delek,


Mind, as the non-ego centric mind would be the essence in Dzogchen.


Mutsog Marro
KY

The term Mind is used in a myriad of ways, what would constitute the "mind" in how you're using it? I'd say you have to be careful with labels, because the label implies a "thing" (or a collection of things) which automatically creates 'that which is not-that-thing'. Hence the duality of the ego-centric-mind and the non-ego-centric-mind ...both are fabrications of avidya. As conventional concepts they can be good pointers in a given situation where they're appropriate, but ultimately neither can be the essence in Dzogchen, and ultimately both require negation of inherency apart from conventionality. The essence with how Namdrol used it would be a description of the "essential point" of the teaching or the "underlying theme". Like the essential point of collecting bottlecaps is to have a collection. The essential point of Dzogchen is to know your own state. But the essence as in a term attributed to the "base" which is what you deemed as "mind" ...is not mind...or the base. It is empty. And empty is empty.

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,


Mind, as the non-ego centric mind would be the essence in Dzogchen.


Mutsog Marro
KY

The term Mind is used in a myriad of ways, what would constitute the "mind" in how you're using it?
I am using the mind as ego-centric and non-ego-centric. Well we use mostly the mind of dualisms or the mind of karma and in Dzogchen Meditaition i am aware of the nondual or non-ego-centric mind.


I'd say you have to be careful with labels, because the label implies a "thing" (or a collection of things) which automatically creates 'that which is not-that-thing'. Hence the duality of the ego-centric-mind and the non-ego-centric-mind ...both are fabrications of avidya.
Well i do labelling with words, to make possible something clear. Last mentioned non-ego-centric mind do i see as more as Rigpa (without learning).


As conventional concepts they can be good pointers in a given situation where they're appropriate, but ultimately neither can be the essence in Dzogchen, and ultimately both require negation of inherency apart from conventionality.
I also see Essence and Nature as one meaning here. So the essence of Dzogchen is prescribing its Nature or the essence is part of the Nature.

The essence with how Namdrol used it would be a description of the "essential point" of the teaching or the "underlying theme". Like the essential point of collecting bottlecaps is to have a collection. The essential point of Dzogchen is to know your own state. But the essence as in a term attributed to the "base" which is what you deemed as "mind" ...is not mind...or the base. It is empty. And empty is empty.

Well the base in Dzogchen is the Natural State where everything comes out. One can combine this Nature with Compassion.
The essence of this Nature is emptiness but it has the abillity that thoughts can spontaneously arise out of Nature, whereas Nature has not made anything or has anything to do with the development of thoughts. So here i don' t agree with you at all that out of this so called emptiness cannot arise thoughts.
Then we get that thoughts can be dualistic and then is spoken of the ego-centric-mind. The non-dualistic-egocentric mind, that is seen by me as Rigpa.
Then the essence of the Dzogchen teachings are by that reasoning for me the realising of the egoless mind.

Mutsog Marro
KY

[White Lotus]

just be, live, breathe... versus see your original nature. people have been arguing over this for centuries in different religious traditions. which is it?... just dont know.

one could be seen as the trunk of the elephant, the other as its legs... many different takes on the theme of enlightenment. perhaps in the end one does not know, nor can one know since the two perspectives... 'be' and nature are taken up by so many learned people.

there are dzogchen texts that emphasise 'be' and then someone like Namkhai Norbu could be said to be teaching seeing 'nature'.

i am not learned in this matter, but this is how i understand a dilemma... 'be' or see nature. in therevada and zen there is an emphasis on seeing nature/dhamma. however in hinduism and some dzogchen teachings there is an emphasis on just be.

so its difficult and in the end i suppose one just isnt certain about this. can one be certain about anything in this life. can we ever know the ultimates. im not sure. do we know... im not certain. we dont know... im not certain. dont know.

best wishes, Tom.

[wisdom]

[color=#0040FF]Well the base in Dzogchen is the Natural State where everything comes out. One can combine this Nature with Compassion.

My current understanding is that compassion is part of the nature of our natural state. That it naturally arises with the perception of that state and that one need not combine the state with compassion, nor contrive any compassion after having achieved that state, and that this is where absolute bodhicitta comes from. Is that view wrong?

[Paul]

[color=#0040FF]Well the base in Dzogchen is the Natural State where everything comes out. One can combine this Nature with Compassion.

My current understanding is that compassion is part of the nature of our natural state. That it naturally arises with the perception of that state and that one need not combine the state with compassion, nor contrive any compassion after having achieved that state, and that this is where absolute bodhicitta comes from. Is that view wrong?

It is my understanding that initially the practice is the recognition of essence rigpa, but over time the qualities of rigpa naturally emerges (thugje) which are more akin to the emotions of devotion and compassion but remain inseparable from rigpa's nature.

On a related note, Tsoknyi Rinpoche's stated that for some people compassion and devotion are needed for the natural emergence of insight through practice, but for others insight will come first and then devotion and compassion will emerge naturally. The first group are usually Tibetans (or others from a dharma-based culture), whereas the latter is usually the case for Westerners.

[muni]

Stream of concepts is chasing mirages.

[White Lotus]

not attached to freedom.