Dzogchen view of Pure Land practice?

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Dzogchen view of Pure Land practice?

Postby Fa Dao » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:13 am

Does anyone know what the view of Pure Land recitation would be from a Dzogchen persective? Does one actually go to a Pure Land and spend time with a fully enlightened Buddha after they die by doing that practice?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen view of Pure Land practice?

Postby pensum » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:35 am

Fa Dao wrote:Does anyone know what the view of Pure Land recitation would be from a Dzogchen persective? Does one actually go to a Pure Land and spend time with a fully enlightened Buddha after they die by doing that practice?


Ideally a follower of dzogchen achieves full and complete liberation in this very body and lifetime, and is not reborn even in a pure land. However as the habitual obscurations accumulated since the beginning of time make this a somewhat rare event, the buddhas and masters of the past have provided those less fortunate with the practice of phowa in order to assure that one is reborn in a pure land, where one has ideal circumstances and is virtually guaranteed full awakening.
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Re: Dzogchen view of Pure Land practice?

Postby Mr. G » Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:00 am

Fa Dao wrote:Does anyone know what the view of Pure Land recitation would be from a Dzogchen persective? Does one actually go to a Pure Land and spend time with a fully enlightened Buddha after they die by doing that practice?


viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3892&p=36028#p36028
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Dzogchen view of Pure Land practice?

Postby heart » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:07 am

Fa Dao wrote:Does anyone know what the view of Pure Land recitation would be from a Dzogchen persective? Does one actually go to a Pure Land and spend time with a fully enlightened Buddha after they die by doing that practice?


Yes, the "Yeshe Lama" actually contains a lot of interesting details about this. Jigme Lingpa explains how to achieve rebirth in any pure land that you favor if you fail to gain realization at death.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen view of Pure Land practice?

Postby Mr. G » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:05 pm

heart wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Does anyone know what the view of Pure Land recitation would be from a Dzogchen persective? Does one actually go to a Pure Land and spend time with a fully enlightened Buddha after they die by doing that practice?


Yes, the "Yeshe Lama" actually contains a lot of interesting details about this. Jigme Lingpa explains how to achieve rebirth in any pure land that you favor if you fail to gain realization at death.

/magnus


Hi magnus,

I was looking to elaborate on the questions by Fa Dao.

From a Dzogchyen POV, does a sutra style Pure Land practitioner attain full Buddhahood? I did not think so, but am unsure.

In that link I provided, would you know how Namdrol used the term "wisdom display" in the context of bardo experience? I still do not see how they are correlated.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen view of Pure Land practice?

Postby heart » Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:45 am

Mr. G wrote:
Hi magnus,

I was looking to elaborate on the questions by Fa Dao.

From a Dzogchyen POV, does a sutra style Pure Land practitioner attain full Buddhahood? I did not think so, but am unsure.

In that link I provided, would you know how Namdrol used the term "wisdom display" in the context of bardo experience? I still do not see how they are correlated.


Hi Mr. G

I think that from the POV of Dzogchen all other yanas have to eventually practice Dzogchen in order to reach full enlightenment. This is because the non-elaborate and non-conceptual nature of Dzogchen practice that all other practices will in up there, in my understanding.

In the bardo, if you don't recognize you nature in the luminous bardo of dhamatha which is like the primordial pure ground then the sounds, rays and lights will arise along with the peaceful and wrathful manifestations and this is like the ground manifestations. I guess you can call that wisdom display.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen view of Pure Land practice?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:34 pm

Thanks magnus
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen view of Pure Land practice?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:34 pm

heart wrote:
In the bardo, if you don't recognize you nature in the luminous bardo of dhamatha which is like the primordial pure ground then the sounds, rays and lights will arise along with the peaceful and wrathful manifestations and this is like the ground manifestations. I guess you can call that wisdom display.



Sounds, lights and rays are the bardo of dharmatā. If you do not recognize those, then you pass into the bardo of rebirth.

N
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Re: Dzogchen view of Pure Land practice?

Postby heart » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:09 am

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
In the bardo, if you don't recognize you nature in the luminous bardo of dhamatha which is like the primordial pure ground then the sounds, rays and lights will arise along with the peaceful and wrathful manifestations and this is like the ground manifestations. I guess you can call that wisdom display.



Sounds, lights and rays are the bardo of dharmatā. If you do not recognize those, then you pass into the bardo of rebirth.

N


Yes, of course you are right. In the end of the painful bardo of dying there is the moment of the ground luminosity or the unfolding of primordial purity. The luminous bardo of dharmatha is the moment of the spontaneous presence, the manifestation of the sounds, rays and lights and the peaceful and wrathful manifestations.


/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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