Questions about energy

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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:52 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
yes like in the chod sadhana where it says that beings are in samsara due to not recognizing "rang byung gi rig pa" as the ultimate refuge,



This should be read as "the vidyā that arises from oneself", and is how I read it.

N


interesting. is that an original reading or would 4 out of 5 Lopons recommend it?


Anyone who really understands how rang byung is being used in these texts would read it that way. rang byung ye shes is so called because it does not arise from other than one's own experience, it is not given to you, it does not arise from someone's instruction, etc. It is the wisdom that comes from within oneself. Vida the fourth empowerment of Hevajra "You yourself are its father".

N
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:53 pm

Namdrol wrote: The basis is not rigpa.


you said earlier:

at the time vāyu stirred in the basis, the three wisdoms were not recognized


wisdoms = ye shes? If ye shes/rig pa is a "knowingness", then who or what did or didn't recognize them?
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:55 pm

Namdrol wrote:Anyone who really understands how rang byung is being used in these texts would read it that way. rang byung ye shes is so called because it does not arise from other than one's own experience, it is not given to you, it does not arise from someone's instruction, etc. It is the wisdom that comes from within oneself. Vida the fourth empowerment of Hevajra "You yourself are its father".


I'm sure that ChNNR understands how it is being used in the texts, but that is not the way he translates it.
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:59 pm

also, isn't saying "the wisdom that arises from oneself/one's self" problematic because A) surely it doesn't arise from the conventional self, and what other kind of self is there? and B) the whole point of rang byung is it is arisen without causes or conditions, and your rendering is in an "A arises from B" format.
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:01 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote: The basis is not rigpa.


you said earlier:

at the time vāyu stirred in the basis, the three wisdoms were not recognized


wisdoms = ye shes? If ye shes/rig pa is a "knowingness", then who or what did or didn't recognize them?


Wisdom = ye shes.

This is a subtle point of Dzogchen most people do not pay attention to. There is very little difference between Dzogchen cosmology and Abhidharma cosmology. But there is a slight difference. In Dzogchen cosmology all sentient beings achieve buddhahood.

But....there are two kinds of buddhahood discussed in Dzogchen; buddhahood that reverts to the cause and the buddhahood that does not revert the cause.

Those whose buddhahood was incomplete can still fall into sentient being hood if they do not recognize the arising of the basis as being their own display.

According to the commentary on the སྲས་གཅིག་པུ་རྒྱུད by Garab Dorje in the Vima Nyinthig, the basis arises because of traces of latent affliction and action left over from the previous eon. At that time, one either recognizes the stirring of the basis or not.

N

When the
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:03 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:also, isn't saying "the wisdom that arises from oneself/one's self" problematic because A) surely it doesn't arise from the conventional self, and what other kind of self is there? and B) the whole point of rang byung is it is arisen without causes or conditions, and your rendering is in an "A arises from B" format.



The whole point of rang byung is that it arises from your own state.

When you have read sufficient amount of texts this will be more clear to you. For now, just go with the conventional reading.

N
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:04 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Anyone who really understands how rang byung is being used in these texts would read it that way. rang byung ye shes is so called because it does not arise from other than one's own experience, it is not given to you, it does not arise from someone's instruction, etc. It is the wisdom that comes from within oneself. Vida the fourth empowerment of Hevajra "You yourself are its father".


I'm sure that ChNNR understands how it is being used in the texts, but that is not the way he translates it.



How things are translated and what they mean are two entirely different things.
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Questions about energy

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:08 pm

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Anyone who really understands how rang byung is being used in these texts would read it that way. rang byung ye shes is so called because it does not arise from other than one's own experience, it is not given to you, it does not arise from someone's instruction, etc. It is the wisdom that comes from within oneself. Vida the fourth empowerment of Hevajra "You yourself are its father".


I'm sure that ChNNR understands how it is being used in the texts, but that is not the way he translates it.



How things are translated and what they mean are two entirely different things.


only if its a bad translation, or if the word in untranslatable, in which case it is usually left in the source language.
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby gad rgyangs » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:18 pm

Namdrol wrote:The whole point of rang byung is that it arises from your own state.
N


ye shes/rig pa does not arise from your own state, it is your own state. since it is uncaused, it is described as "rang byung"
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:22 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
only if its a bad translation, or if the word in untranslatable, in which case it is usually left in the source language.


Not true. This is why the explanation of any translated Dharma text requires special skills.

One has to strike a balance between readability and over-glossing a term. In many cases, it is better to select a simple translation that indicates to the explainer a broader range of meaning, which then can act as a hook to remind the person who has received the explanation of the text in question of the broader explanation.

Take a term like mngon sum. It means completely different things depending on how it is used -- but in general, always refers to actually witnessing an event. Sometimes, as in logic, direct perception is better. Sometimes, like when discussing a visionary experience, "personally saw guru rinpoche" meaning that Guru P actually showed up and you saw him in person, as opposed to a dream. Or in Dzogchen, when discussing the first of the four visions, here it means having a personal experience of vidyā as a visual phenomena, seeing a thigle.

In the latter case, if you translate chose nyid mgon sum as direct perception of dharmatā, someone who has no idea about Dzogchen will understand this to be a reference the path of seeing (which it is not). For that matter, even the meaning of dharmatā is different, which is why in so many dzogchen texts, when discussing dharmatā ala sutra style, the term stong pa nyid is always appended i.e. chos nyid stung pa nyid, to make the distinction between dharmatā as ye shes or rig pa in the visions.

Ideally of course you would want everything to be easily understood, but in practice this is far more difficult than you imagine. Something simple have to be explained beyond the translation equivalent you select.

N
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:23 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The whole point of rang byung is that it arises from your own state.
N


ye shes/rig pa does not arise from your own state, it is your own state. since it is uncaused, it is described as "rang byung"



If you insist. I gave you a countervailing example -- but have it your way.

Incidentally, there is no contradiction.

N
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Mr. G » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:But....there are two kinds of buddhahood discussed in Dzogchen; buddhahood that reverts to the cause and the buddhahood that does not revert the cause.

Those whose buddhahood was incomplete can still fall into sentient being hood if they do not recognize the arising of the basis as being their own display.


Hi Namdrol,

Why do they call the Buddhahood that reverts to the cause Buddhahood if it's incomplete? Shouldn't another term be used? Does incomplete Buddhahood put one on the path to complete Buddhahood eventually?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Tenzin1 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:56 am

mint wrote:Is it possible that all beings and all things have an energy field because all things are nothing more than the play of energy, light and insubstantial color?
All things have an energy field because of the electromagnetic nature of life. Living things as well as inert object (rocks) and the planet Earth itself have electromagnetic fields. This isn't New Age mumbo-jumbo, this is science. The earth's iron core in combination with the energy emitted by the sun create a polarity that results in an electromagnetic field enveloping the earth and charging most everything on it, according to physicists at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.

But Kundalini and Ch'i are more related to the life force, which is based in the body's adrenal glands, though they're related to some extent to the body's EM field. Weak adrenals weaken the life force, which in turn affects the strength of the body's internal electrical (cellular) functions and the EM field. Some Western practitioners of tummo (raising the Kundalini) say that the tummo practice draws on the adrenals, and can weaken them if practiced too often. This must be why the Tibetan literature says to eat meat after this type of practice--to give strength back to the system? Ch'i clearly has an electromagnetic aspect. Kundalini should be studied in the lab to determine its effect on the body.
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:09 am

Mr. G wrote:
Namdrol wrote:But....there are two kinds of buddhahood discussed in Dzogchen; buddhahood that reverts to the cause and the buddhahood that does not revert the cause.

Those whose buddhahood was incomplete can still fall into sentient being hood if they do not recognize the arising of the basis as being their own display.


Hi Namdrol,

Why do they call the Buddhahood that reverts to the cause Buddhahood if it's incomplete? Shouldn't another term be used? Does incomplete Buddhahood put one on the path to complete Buddhahood eventually?


There are, if you recall, three stages of Buddhahood. Since the first two stages of Buddhahood do not realized all phenomena as the display of their own wisdom, the eleventh and twelfth bhumi are not complete buddhahood, this true even in Sarma schools.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Mr. G » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:28 am

Namdrol wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
Namdrol wrote:But....there are two kinds of buddhahood discussed in Dzogchen; buddhahood that reverts to the cause and the buddhahood that does not revert the cause.

Those whose buddhahood was incomplete can still fall into sentient being hood if they do not recognize the arising of the basis as being their own display.


Hi Namdrol,

Why do they call the Buddhahood that reverts to the cause Buddhahood if it's incomplete? Shouldn't another term be used? Does incomplete Buddhahood put one on the path to complete Buddhahood eventually?


There are, if you recall, three stages of Buddhahood. Since the first two stages of Buddhahood do not realized all phenomena as the display of their own wisdom, the eleventh and twelfth bhumi are not complete buddhahood, this true even in Sarma schools.

N


Ah, understood. Much appreciated, thank you.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby mint » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:51 pm

Are the manifestations of energy completely spontaneous?

Does karma condition energy?

Do all things happen for a purpose?
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Re: Questions about energy

Postby Virgo » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:57 pm

mint wrote:Do all things happen for a purpose?

In a way yes. All things are based on causes and conditions for their manifestation. However, if you think about it, all things in life lead one towards spirituality. Every occurence teaches one something about the various energies, about the unfit nature of samsara and so on. We just need the wisdom to start seeing them, to start learning frorm them. This is what takes a long time.

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