Dharma Wheel

Dechen Norbu wrote:One almost wouldn't notice that, but when you wrote

However, I'm not OK with the idea that someone can receive material which was never intended for them and may consequently either be misled or may delude themselves into believing that they are fully equipped for practices, when in fact they are not. Worse, they could set themsleves up to teach others.

I realized that you were somehow assuming that empowerments were given via webcast. Such is not the case.
There are also closed webcasts and retreats where you need to ask permission to the Lama to assist before they start.

Direct transmission can always be attempted with no harm whatsoever. Of course there are those who may think they got it when they didn't, don't check it, and remain deluded for years, but that's the student's fault.
If someone doesn't get direct transmission, he shouldn't consider it some sort of mystery. Such person should try to identify why and deal with it in appropriate manner. It's always due to a deficient preparation in relation to one's own obstacles. These are what we need to find out and overcome with correct practice. We shouldn't expect transmission to happen magically if we do absolutely nothing on our side. We must check our condition. When in doubt about why it isn't happening in spite of we doing our best in terms of preparation for some time, we should move our asses and go ask. Becoming stressed about it only makes things worse.

Yes. I read that closed webcasts were in use - by CHNN? I was really referring to others who have actually put entire empowerments on Youtube, put up sites with pdf files of HYT empowerments and commentaries. I hope Dzogchen has less of this.

I think your comments about praparation are valid in the contexts I am used to (HYT Gelugpa) as well, and may be so across Vajrayana. It's wonderful if you are close to your Lama and can be guided, and it saddens me to see so many who may only have encountered Buddhism a few week before turning up to HYT empowerments in their thousands and taking on practice commitments, Tantric Vows etc. when they have barely started their path. In the context of the thread it's a bit like treating a live guru as a stage act or treating an internet experience like a TV show - a passive experience where the 'performance' is the focus.

Dechen Norbu wrote:You mean an online wang? I never seen it. Explanations and lungs yes, but I never seen a wang being given online. When did that happen?

Well sort of. Rinpoche gives don dbang - meaning or essential empowerments, though I can't remember if he gave any this year. The WWTs are actually a kind of don dbang too though.

Dechen Norbu wrote:You mean an online wang? I never seen it. Explanations and lungs yes, but I never seen a wang being given online. When did that happen?

Off the top of my head, try a Youtube search on ''Vajrapani Hayagriva Garuda Initiation By Lochen Rinpoche ''. There are several others.

Pero wrote:

Dechen Norbu wrote:You mean an online wang? I never seen it. Explanations and lungs yes, but I never seen a wang being given online. When did that happen?

Well sort of. Rinpoche gives don dbang - meaning or essential empowerments, though I can't remember if he gave any this year. The WWTs are actually a kind of don dbang too though.

Sort of is a different thing. It doesn't imply physical presence. ChNN would have to have a hell of an arm to hit you in the head with a bumpa while you were in another country!

Blue Garuda wrote:

Dechen Norbu wrote:You mean an online wang? I never seen it. Explanations and lungs yes, but I never seen a wang being given online. When did that happen?

Off the top of my head, try a Youtube search on ''Vajrapani Hayagriva Garuda Initiation By Lochen Rinpoche ''. There are several others.

I was meaning by ChNN.
About the rest... I had to know that lama well enough to pronounce myself about it, I guess. Seems a bit awkward, but I don't have sufficient qualifications to judge or deem it as possible or impossible. At a first glance (without viewing the video), it doesn't seem my cup of tea. Most of the wangs I received were at closed doors and in small groups, even the most common. But then again, I was also quite conservative regarding direct transmission before I understood what it was about, so I don't want to say yea or nay and later have to correct it.
I think it was a shame that many tantric ritual/ practices became public, but alas, the cat is out of the bag for a long time. Perhaps now the best that can be done is clarifying things to avoid even more misinterpretations, although placing a video of an empowerment in youtube seems a way to generate even more, not clarifying the subject at all...

Dechen Norbu wrote:

Pero wrote:

Dechen Norbu wrote:You mean an online wang? I never seen it. Explanations and lungs yes, but I never seen a wang being given online. When did that happen?

Well sort of. Rinpoche gives don dbang - meaning or essential empowerments, though I can't remember if he gave any this year. The WWTs are actually a kind of don dbang too though.

Sort of is a different thing. It doesn't imply physical presence. ChNN would have to have a hell of an arm to hit you in the head with a bumpa while you were in another country!

Yes that's the difference but that's also all that's different. So you can't say he doesn't give empowerments over webcasts. If you receive a don dbang you don't have to go look for a wang after too.

Pero wrote:

Sort of is a different thing. It doesn't imply physical presence. ChNN would have to have a hell of an arm to hit you in the head with a bumpa while you were in another country!

Yes that's the difference but that's also all that's different. So you can't say he doesn't give empowerments over webcasts. If you receive a don dbang you don't have to go look for a wang after too.

The point being? If it can be done without the need of physical presence, then it can be done via webcast. If it needs physical presence, then it can't be done via webcast. What am I missing?

EDIT: oh, the point being that I can't say he doesn't give empowerments via webcast. I get it. Not empowerments that couldn't be given via webcast he doesn't, at least that I am aware of. But let's get back to topic. It's derailing to the matter of empowerments via webcast, videos on youtube about empowerments, the secrecy of tantric rituals and all that when the topic is about transmission happening in a sort of gray scale.

Dechen Norbu wrote:

Pero wrote:

Sort of is a different thing. It doesn't imply physical presence. ChNN would have to have a hell of an arm to hit you in the head with a bumpa while you were in another country!

Yes that's the difference but that's also all that's different. So you can't say he doesn't give empowerments over webcasts. If you receive a don dbang you don't have to go look for a wang after too.

The point being? If it can be done without the need of physical presence, then it can be done via webcast. If it needs physical presence, then it can't be done via webcast. What am I missing?

EDIT: oh, the point being that I can't say he doesn't give empowerments via webcast. I get it. Not empowerments that couldn't be given via webcast he doesn't, at least that I am aware of. But let's get back to topic. It's derailing to the matter of empowerments via webcast, videos on youtube about empowerments, the secrecy of tantric rituals and all that when the topic is about transmission happening in a sort of gray scale.

Haha yeah.

Dechen Norbu wrote:

Blue Garuda wrote:

Dechen Norbu wrote:You mean an online wang? I never seen it. Explanations and lungs yes, but I never seen a wang being given online. When did that happen?

Off the top of my head, try a Youtube search on ''Vajrapani Hayagriva Garuda Initiation By Lochen Rinpoche ''. There are several others.

I was meaning by ChNN.
About the rest... I had to know that lama well enough to pronounce myself about it, I guess. Seems a bit awkward, but I don't have sufficient qualifications to judge or deem it as possible or impossible. At a first glance (without viewing the video), it doesn't seem my cup of tea. Most of the wangs I received were at closed doors and in small groups, even the most common. But then again, I was also quite conservative regarding direct transmission before I understood what it was about, so I don't want to say yea or nay and later have to correct it.
I think it was a shame that many tantric ritual/ practices became public, but alas, the cat is out of the bag for a long time. Perhaps now the best that can be done is clarifying things to avoid even more misinterpretations, although placing a video of an empowerment in youtube seems a way to generate even more, not clarifying the subject at all...

I wouldn't recommend anyone to sit through the entire Youtube empowerment I mentioned, unless they feel they have a reason for doing so. My karmic link/interest/obsession (LOL ) with Garuda, and previous empowerments, gave me enough motivation to do so.

As I was already experienced with the general empowerment process, I could follow what went on. Physical contact with the Lama does not always happen in large groups so I visualised that I was at the back of the room and ................... it seemed to me to be very effective and moving.

I guess we all have a tipping point, and mine is the indiscriminate nature of broadcasts (as opposed to narrowcast webcasts).
However, I can't say that I'm totally convinced as karma may have ripened and the causes and conditions led me to that online empowerment - possibly implying a connection with that Lama.

The little I've heard about ChNN gives me no concern at all - my (first) impression leads me to keep an eye on his schedule and see if I may be able to catch him on his next visit to the UK.

I can't see shades of grey - there has either been transmission from Lama to Disciple or not. DN has already mentioned being prepared, and the extent of that preparedness may be shades of grey, but not the transmission itself.

I'll bow out now. I just wanted to add a comparator as a bit of context, but I risk writing nonsense in the context of Dzogchen!

sherabpa wrote:It seems to me transmission (a topic much discussed here) is not completely black and white, in that the manner in which it is given is either fully legitimate, or else it is totally ineffective, even 'a farce'. Rather, there are degrees.

I don't think there are any degrees at all; either the transmission is given and received or it is not. The degree of bad samaya around the practice and the level of realization of the master giving it both effect how powerful the practice will be, but do not damage the fact of whether the empowerment is given or received.

sherabpa wrote: In any empowerment or transmission, the lama will sometimes choose to do it very extensively and elaborately, and sometimes he or she will abbreviate things. The difficulty comes because it seems we have to draw the line somewhere between authentic and ineffective. The abbreviations or departures from the norm become so extensive that something essential has surely been lost - the transmission is ineffective no matter how receptive or devoted the student might be.

Certain empowerments need very specific things to be done to be given. Others may specify that only a certain amount of students may be in attendance, etc. If they requirements are met, even if abbreviated, the transmission has definitely been given and received. Also, if the master is very realized, even greater brevity or the lack of certain substances, etc. may be alright, it seems.

sherabpa wrote: On one extreme, you have a detailed person-to-person transmission of whispered instructions directly from teacher to student. A little short of this, you have the transmission given to a room full of people in a noisy public building. Maybe you are sitting at the back.

This doesn't make any difference at all.

sherabpa wrote:
In between you have so many intermediate cases, such as webcasts, videos and other media.

As far as a webcast goes, it is live. The connection between the master and the student is still there and perfectly valid. Therefore, distance and so on doesn't matter.

sherabpa wrote:
Obviously, I don't know, but it seems hasty to rule out the possibility of an authentic transmission being achieved through indirect media. The student's devotion may overcome such barriers of separation.

Empowerments given on video don't work because there is not a live connection between the students and the master. Empowerments given via live webcasts are fine.

sherabpa wrote:On the other hand, true devotion probably also seeks the person-to-person transmission

Being near the Guru is a great blessing, but physical presence is something that people get way too hung up on.

Kevin

dakini_boi wrote: I think it takes a certain amount of faith for an ordinary person from a nihilist-materialist culture to accept the idea that they can receive a Dzogchen transmission over the internet.

This might be the third time I've said this, but ChNN is not giving Dzogchen transmission over the internet.

If he was, then you could get the transmission just from the replays of the webcast. We all know, however, that you can't receive Rinpoche's transmission from a recording.

Your true nature pervades all of samsara and nirvana, is free of extremes like one or many or limitations like here or there and thus is naturally inseparable from the master's and all the awakened beings'. Doing guruyoga with the master while he is giving the transmission means you are participating and having an experience which is the basis for firmly recognizing your true nature. Then, as you continue in the state of guruyoga that is certainly not contained in the internet, Rinpoche makes use of the net much like a microphone and speakers, or a microphone and cctv, so you can actually hear his words while he explains Dzogchen so you can understand. It's that simple.

You make a very good distinction and emphasize very important points there, Pema. Couldn't agree more.
Very well put.