Guardians of the Teaching

[Stewart]

No, but I have heard that some of the deities in an Enlightened protectors retinue can 'take offence' if their Torma isn't offered.

To be honest, I took the Empowerments on advice of my Guru in order to support certain other practices he had given me. Otherwise I wouldn't have took the commitment lightly.

[gregkavarnos]

This thread is like the samaya breaking party of the year!

[Anders]

This thread is like the samaya breaking party of the year!

I suppose there is always the safe option of calling on the name of Avalokiteshvara.

(s)he listens to most anyone.

[Malcolm]

This thread is like the samaya breaking party of the year!

Talking about protectors breaks samaya?

[Stewart]

What's the problem?

[asunthatneversets]

:smile:

To be honest, I never have so I don't know!...but I would do Tsok (ganapuja) to repair Samaya.

Oh, the way you said it, it sounded as if the empowerment came with some caveats. I wouldn't want you to break your samaya and be eaten by a guardian.

You can just do chod and get eaten by a guardian, you'd be a minty fresh treat for the black troma. Mint: the appetizer, main course and dessert. She's hungry

[gregkavarnos]

Calling on protectors (stating their name) without appeasing breaks samaya. Frivolous talk about protectors and their practices breaks samaya.

[Adamantine]

From my experience, when I was given protector Empowerements by my Guru (Mingyur Rinpoche), I was given a short daily Torma offering that I have to do everyday, for life.

I have done this daily for over 8 years, I feel it keeps my connection strong with my Guru and the Lineage.

That's usually the case with protector empowerments-- and the samaya is heavy, so they generally aren't given often and without discernment to western students unless they've proven themselves as quite serious. .

[Adamantine]

So, there's no guardians who can aid the beginning student of Dzogchen? or, it's useless? or, it's too harmful?

I was told not to mess with Ekajati, Rahula or Dorje Legpa by yourself unless you're a well assimilated practitioner. That calling on them in a group setting like a ganapuja or something is cool but by yourself is not a good idea. I've also been told that if you want to call upon wrathful protectors such as those i mentioned to help you in practice you WILL attain your goal, be it realization or whatever... but you'll lose touch with everyone in your life who isn't a dharma practitioner.

Why is it not a good idea? What ill effects have been noted of calling upon these guardians by one's self? If you've received the empowerment, isn't that technically a license to call upon the guardian yidams when going solo?

I couldn't even say why it isn't a good idea, i'm merely regurgitating what someone else has told me when it comes to the rules and regulations of deity yoga. So take my statements with a grain of salt and based on what others have said on here i'll probably re-evaluate my own notions of it as well. The only thing i can say is that my source has been a dharma practitioner for 50 years and he's highly knowledgeable, well-traveled and well-informed on most things when it comes to anu/atiyoga. But that doesn't validate what's said... and it may very well be a case of different traditions having different beliefs and opinions which may contrast each other like someone said above. Stick to what your sangha practices (which sounds like it's the same community i belong to, ChNN knows whats right).

I'd say if you want to go with a guardian to aid practice in the beginning (or at any time) use Padmasambhava(Guru Rinpoche). But really if you just dedicate the merit ('om dhare dhare bhandare svaha jaya...' etc..) at the end of practice, and be sure to keep the intention in mind that you're doing practice for the benefit of all sentient beings you're golden.

Well in the Dudjom Tersar the Dharmapala practices are generally treated with caution, not recommended for people to do on their own, or if on their own than not too-often, -if their practice isn't very stabilized already. So this aligns with what your friend has said. They are never to be treated lightly I would imagine, in any lineage. ChNN as usual does something unique by offering lung for the protectors to anyone that comes to retreats or open webcasts, etc. Although in a tun he doesn't instruct you to offer serkyem, with the other tantric substances, etc. so I assume it is functioning as more of establishing a Dzogchen connection with Dzogchen protectors than the general tantric approach with all the external offerings . Maybe someone else can offer more details. I've never read the Dzogchen Community booklet on the protectors but I probably should if it clarifies these things.

[Adamantine]

Frivolous talk about protectors and their practices breaks samaya.

Well, perhaps the jokes were frivolous, is that what you meant? For the most part, I think people were just trying to make sense of something in TB that is quite alien to our culture. It is natural, and better to try to understand then to live on in ignorance and then do something truly stupid.

[alpha]

what is the exact samaya with the protectors in DC?

Does receiving lung for the guradian practice makes it compulsory that one practices "calling upon their assistance" every day without fail?
If this doesnt happen does it mean that one has broken samaya?

[gregkavarnos]

For the most part, I think people were just trying to make sense of something in TB that is quite alien to our culture. It is natural, and better to try to understand then to live on in ignorance and then do something truly stupid.

I agree 100% but these are not issues to be dealt with in a public forum but to be discussed directly with ones lama.

PS I have made similar mistakes in the past and others were kind enough to point them out to me, please do not feel that I am judging from "upon high".

[Sönam]

...
ChNN as usual does something unique by offering lung for the protectors to anyone that comes to retreats or open webcasts, etc. Although in a tun he doesn't instruct you to offer serkyem, with the other tantric substances, etc. so I assume it is functioning as more of establishing a Dzogchen connection with Dzogchen protectors than the general tantric approach with all the external offerings . Maybe someone else can offer more details. I've never read the Dzogchen Community booklet on the protectors but I probably should if it clarifies these things.

Nevertheless, when I've been told about protectors, I can remember that the instructor of the community did'nt want to pronounce any invocation (only showing it in the book) because he did'nt want to take the risk, as he did'nt prepare (condition) him self.

Sönam

[Stewart]

Morning Greg,

Since I didn't do either of these things: ie; Mention the protectors names or discuss the details of the practice I do, like Mantras, Visualizations etc or speak in a frivolous way regarding the Protectors, I'll assume your not referring to my posts.

I was in fact trying to stress that these are serious practices and should not be taken lightly.

s.

ps. I will add however, that I have never heard of the 'mentioning names' thing, it was made clear when I received Empowerment that my Samayas were to complete the Sadhana/Mantras everyday, and to not disclose the details of the practice to others.

[Malcolm]

Calling on protectors (stating their name) without appeasing breaks samaya. Frivolous talk about protectors and their practices breaks samaya.

As I said, this all depends on the opinions of this or that Lama.

No one here is discussing the guardians frivolously.

The idea that saying the name "rahula" breaks samaya is quite ridiculous.

N

[gregkavarnos]

The idea that saying the name "rahula" breaks samaya is quite ridiculous.

You go with what your lama tells you, I'll go with what mine tells me.
If you believe it is quite okay and that it is valuable to plaster your protectors names all over a public board then go for it! I am not judging, I am merely recanting what I have been instructed.

[Adamantine]

The idea that saying the name "rahula" breaks samaya is quite ridiculous.

You go with what your lama tells you, I'll go with what mine tells me.
If you believe it is quite okay and that it is valuable to plaster your protectors names all over a public board then go for it! I am not judging, I am merely recanting what I have been instructed.

I guess then we should all agree to mind our own samayas as we understand them and not try to mind others for them. It's hard enough to keep our own with out worrying about everyone elses!

[Malcolm]

The idea that saying the name "rahula" breaks samaya is quite ridiculous.

You go with what your lama tells you, I'll go with what mine tells me.
If you believe it is quite okay and that it is valuable to plaster your protectors names all over a public board then go for it! I am not judging, I am merely recanting what I have been instructed.

It is so silly to make this argument considering that every name and picture of virtually every major protector has been spread far and wide on the internet.

Everyone knows knows that the ma-za-dam sum are the main protectors of Dzogchen. This is not a big secret.

N

[gregkavarnos]

It is so silly to make this argument considering that every name and picture of virtually every major protector has been spread far and wide on the internet.

Yes I agree, unfortunately this is very true, but we can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

Everyone knows knows that the ma-za-dam sum are the main protectors of Dzogchen. This is not a big secret.

Well, I wouldn't say EVERYONE. But now that you said it...

[Malcolm]

It is so silly to make this argument considering that every name and picture of virtually every major protector has been spread far and wide on the internet.

Yes I agree, unfortunately this is very true, but we can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

Take it up with Rigpa Wiki:
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Ekajati
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Dza_Rahula
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Dorje_Lekpa