Guardians of the Teaching

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Guardians of the Teaching

Postby mint » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:51 pm

Are certain empowerments required before calling upon the Guardians of the Teaching for assistance?
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby Pero » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:17 pm

mint wrote:Are certain empowerments required before calling upon the Guardians of the Teaching for assistance?

Not in DC, don't know about elsewhere. But I remember reading on E-Sangha that your creation stage should be pretty good otherwise you won't be able to catch their attention so to speak. I'm not sure if that's completely true or not though.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby Josef » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:21 pm

Pero wrote:
mint wrote:Are certain empowerments required before calling upon the Guardians of the Teaching for assistance?

Not in DC, don't know about elsewhere. But I remember reading on E-Sangha that your creation stage should be pretty good otherwise you won't be able to catch their attention so to speak. I'm not sure if that's completely true or not though.


Even in the DC this is why we generate as the yidam prior to communicating with them.
The little guardians booklet has good, concise info on this.
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby Pero » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:25 pm

Nangwa wrote:
Pero wrote:
mint wrote:Are certain empowerments required before calling upon the Guardians of the Teaching for assistance?

Not in DC, don't know about elsewhere. But I remember reading on E-Sangha that your creation stage should be pretty good otherwise you won't be able to catch their attention so to speak. I'm not sure if that's completely true or not though.


Even in the DC this is why we generate as the yidam prior to communicating with them.
The little guardians booklet has good, concise info on this.

Yeah I know, but how good do you think your deity practice really has to be in order to communicate with them? I've had some things happen after asking guardians for help but my deity practice is not very good. I guess it could've been just coincidence.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby Konchog1 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:32 pm

Pero wrote:
mint wrote:Are certain empowerments required before calling upon the Guardians of the Teaching for assistance?

Not in DC, don't know about elsewhere. But I remember reading on E-Sangha that your creation stage should be pretty good otherwise you won't be able to catch their attention so to speak. I'm not sure if that's completely true or not though.
I know that's true for unenlightened protectors, is it true for enlightened ones too?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby Paul » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:40 pm

In Tsoknyi Rinpoche's lineage, there is the wisdom dakini Dorje Yudronma. It's not necessary to use a yidam to ask her for help, just give an offering and recite her prayer. So maybe this is the same for other enlightened protectors.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:01 am

I was told not to mess with Ekajati, Rahula or Dorje Legpa by yourself unless you're a well assimilated practitioner. That calling on them in a group setting like a ganapuja or something is cool but by yourself is not a good idea. I've also been told that if you want to call upon wrathful protectors such as those i mentioned to help you in practice you WILL attain your goal, be it realization or whatever... but you'll lose touch with everyone in your life who isn't a dharma practitioner. I have a rahula statue in my room.. and a huge thangka with only those 3, Ekajati, Rahula and Dorje Legpa on it. I favor the wrathful beings by personal preference.. but don't do practices to invoke them unless i'm in a group setting.

And yes traditionally you're supposed to receive those certain transmissions to do their mantras and practices. Supposedly doing the practices without the transmissions will deliver zero results and may hinder your progress. I've always been taught to not take it lightly... and if you aren't sure of something don't act on it until you are sure. It's one of those things you can choose to believe or not, but in either case know you're gambling if the cards aren't in your favor.
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby mint » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:22 pm

So, there's no guardians who can aid the beginning student of Dzogchen? or, it's useless? or, it's too harmful?

asunthatneversets wrote:I was told not to mess with Ekajati, Rahula or Dorje Legpa by yourself unless you're a well assimilated practitioner. That calling on them in a group setting like a ganapuja or something is cool but by yourself is not a good idea. I've also been told that if you want to call upon wrathful protectors such as those i mentioned to help you in practice you WILL attain your goal, be it realization or whatever... but you'll lose touch with everyone in your life who isn't a dharma practitioner.


Why is it not a good idea? What ill effects have been noted of calling upon these guardians by one's self? If you've received the empowerment, isn't that technically a license to call upon the guardian yidams when going solo?
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:40 pm

mint wrote:So, there's no guardians who can aid the beginning student of Dzogchen? or, it's useless? or, it's too harmful?




Guardians exist to protect the teachings and assist practitioners.

As long as you have the lung for the practices, you can do them.

There are many different traditions around how to relate to guardians, most of the them based on the opinions of this or that lama. This is why there is no standard rule about it. So -- in the Dzogchen Community, if you do the short thun, then you always do guardian practice.

If you are following the ChNN's teachings, pay no attention to what those are not students of the ChNN say about guardians.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby heart » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:52 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:I was told not to mess with Ekajati, Rahula or Dorje Legpa by yourself unless you're a well assimilated practitioner. That calling on them in a group setting like a ganapuja or something is cool but by yourself is not a good idea. I've also been told that if you want to call upon wrathful protectors such as those i mentioned to help you in practice you WILL attain your goal, be it realization or whatever... but you'll lose touch with everyone in your life who isn't a dharma practitioner. I have a rahula statue in my room.. and a huge thangka with only those 3, Ekajati, Rahula and Dorje Legpa on it. I favor the wrathful beings by personal preference.. but don't do practices to invoke them unless i'm in a group setting.

And yes traditionally you're supposed to receive those certain transmissions to do their mantras and practices. Supposedly doing the practices without the transmissions will deliver zero results and may hinder your progress. I've always been taught to not take it lightly... and if you aren't sure of something don't act on it until you are sure. It's one of those things you can choose to believe or not, but in either case know you're gambling if the cards aren't in your favor.


According to Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche you have to do a torma offering every day to the Dzogchen protectors if you practice my Dzogchen cycle.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby Kilaya » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:28 pm

asunthatneversets wrote: I've always been taught to not take it lightly...


Not taking it lightly is one thing, but fearing protectors as if they were some hostile beings may not be the right attitude. Of course, we respect them and we don't try to use them for selfish goals or harmful acts against others, but apart from that I don't see why invoking them for the sake of our spiritual development would be dangerous or wrong.
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:56 pm

Yeah i'm just parroting what i've been told. I attach no weight or validity to any of those ideas they could be completely unfounded for all i know. I'm actually not one to adhere to any of the dogmatic aspects of these teachings... it is funny to see myself mirroring notions like that which have been planted into me subconsciously by those i've come into contact with. For some reason those who attend the ling i go to sometimes really do put the guardians i mentioned up on a pedestal, in the sense that one shouldn't perform said practices unless they're at a certain level (which is counter-intuitive to dzogchen altogether). But namdrol is right be careful about who is saying what on here, i am a student of ChNN but that doesn't mean i'm exempt from propagating statements which are rumors being paraded as some kind of truth.
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby Stewart » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:24 pm

From my experience, when I was given protector Empowerements by my Guru (Mingyur Rinpoche), I was given a short daily Torma offering that I have to do everyday, for life.

I have done this daily for over 8 years, I feel it keeps my connection strong with my Guru and the Lineage.
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:25 pm

mint wrote:So, there's no guardians who can aid the beginning student of Dzogchen? or, it's useless? or, it's too harmful?

asunthatneversets wrote:I was told not to mess with Ekajati, Rahula or Dorje Legpa by yourself unless you're a well assimilated practitioner. That calling on them in a group setting like a ganapuja or something is cool but by yourself is not a good idea. I've also been told that if you want to call upon wrathful protectors such as those i mentioned to help you in practice you WILL attain your goal, be it realization or whatever... but you'll lose touch with everyone in your life who isn't a dharma practitioner.


Why is it not a good idea? What ill effects have been noted of calling upon these guardians by one's self? If you've received the empowerment, isn't that technically a license to call upon the guardian yidams when going solo?


I couldn't even say why it isn't a good idea, i'm merely regurgitating what someone else has told me when it comes to the rules and regulations of deity yoga. So take my statements with a grain of salt and based on what others have said on here i'll probably re-evaluate my own notions of it as well. The only thing i can say is that my source has been a dharma practitioner for 50 years and he's highly knowledgeable, well-traveled and well-informed on most things when it comes to anu/atiyoga. But that doesn't validate what's said... and it may very well be a case of different traditions having different beliefs and opinions which may contrast each other like someone said above. Stick to what your sangha practices (which sounds like it's the same community i belong to, ChNN knows whats right).

I'd say if you want to go with a guardian to aid practice in the beginning (or at any time) use Padmasambhava(Guru Rinpoche). But really if you just dedicate the merit ('om dhare dhare bhandare svaha jaya...' etc..) at the end of practice, and be sure to keep the intention in mind that you're doing practice for the benefit of all sentient beings you're golden.
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:42 pm

Kilaya wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote: I've always been taught to not take it lightly...


Not taking it lightly is one thing, but fearing protectors as if they were some hostile beings may not be the right attitude. Of course, we respect them and we don't try to use them for selfish goals or harmful acts against others, but apart from that I don't see why invoking them for the sake of our spiritual development would be dangerous or wrong.


Yes i'd say it's definitely not the right attitude to fear anything in these teachings. Aside from the schematic of a practitioner-deity relationship it's also good to keep in mind that these guardians are not separate from us at base. But are merely aspects of our true nature which transcends these seeming dualities reinforced by our conditioning. They are meant for aid, inspiration, strength, courage and on some levels may not be anything other than archetypal in nature and implements to fortify our own intention and certainty we project into our practice and path.
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby Malcolm » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:08 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:They are meant for aid, inspiration, strength, courage and on some levels may not be anything other than archetypal in nature and implements to fortify our own intention and certainty we project into our practice and path.


They are not archtypes. Archtypes don't kick ass.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby heart » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:09 pm

Namdrol wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:They are meant for aid, inspiration, strength, courage and on some levels may not be anything other than archetypal in nature and implements to fortify our own intention and certainty we project into our practice and path.


They are not archtypes. Archtypes don't kick ass.

N


:smile:

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby mint » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:56 pm

samdrup wrote:From my experience, when I was given protector Empowerements by my Guru (Mingyur Rinpoche), I was given a short daily Torma offering that I have to do everyday, for life.

I have done this daily for over 8 years, I feel it keeps my connection strong with my Guru and the Lineage.


What happens if you miss a day?
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby Stewart » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:18 pm

:smile:

To be honest, I never have so I don't know!...but I would do Tsok (ganapuja) to repair Samaya.
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Re: Guardians of the Teaching

Postby mint » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:28 pm

samdrup wrote::smile:

To be honest, I never have so I don't know!...but I would do Tsok (ganapuja) to repair Samaya.


Oh, the way you said it, it sounded as if the empowerment came with some caveats. I wouldn't want you to break your samaya and be eaten by a guardian.
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