Dzogchenpa by Accident?

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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Center Channel » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:02 pm

deff wrote:you say nothing is uncaused, but previously said buddhahood is uncaused


Please don't make up stuff.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby ronnewmexico » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:05 pm

Hmmm..just guessing, perhaps the answer lies in this particular as to how one defines cause.

I have no dog in this pony show...just conjecturing a possible. Perhaps cause is being refered to in differing contexts.
Perhaps then it may be helpful to define cause in this context so all may be on the same page with it.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby deff » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:13 pm

Center Channel wrote:
deff wrote:you say nothing is uncaused, but previously said buddhahood is uncaused


Please don't make up stuff.


oh sorry, maybe i misread and thought you said it when someone else did. so you do not think buddhahood is uncaused?
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:20 pm

Center Channel wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Cessation is an absence of causes, by definition.

N



Thats sounds more like nihilism/annhiliationism than cessation.


You don't understand cessation or annhilationism.

And you certainly can treat emptiness as an object and run it through a 7 point Prasangika analyses or similar.


emptiness is not an object
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Center Channel » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:21 pm

Mr. G wrote:You don't understand cessation or annhilationism.


Annhilationism is an absence of causes, by definition.


Mr. G wrote:emptiness is not an object



Of course emptiness is not a object.


But this fact has not stopped any of the Indo-Tibetan Madhyamikas from treating emptiness as an object and running it through a 7 point Prasangika analyses (or similar) to prove that emptiness is conditioned. This is part of Madhyamaka's charm.

P.S. I thought we were having a higher level Madhyamaka discussion than pointing out that emptiness is not a thing. :shrug:
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:09 pm

Center Channel wrote:
Mr. G wrote:You don't understand cessation or annhilationism.


Annhilationism is an absence of causes, by definition.


Annihiliationism is the view that when a person dies, the 'self' breaks up upon death.

Mr. G wrote:emptiness is not an object



Of course emptiness is not a object.


But this fact has not stopped any of the Indo-Tibetan Madhyamikas from treating emptiness as an object and running it through a 7 point Prasangika analyses (or similar) to prove that emptiness is conditioned. This is part of Madhyamaka's charm.

P.S. I thought we were having a higher level Madhyamaka discussion than pointing out that emptiness is not a thing. :shrug:


If you backpedal any further, you'll land on your back alwayson....I mean CC.
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    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Center Channel » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:17 pm

Hmm, repeatedley repeating that emptiness has been analyzed by 7-point analysis as being conditioned is backpedaling?

I even PM'ed you the same thing 3 hours ago:

Center Channel wrote:Are you saying than in the Indo-Tibetan tradition, emptiness itself was never analyzed through a 7 point analyses or similar?


So that makes FOUR times now repeating the same goddamn thing.

Emptiness is conditioned. Period. Take your own advice:

Mr. G wrote:at least have the humility to admit when you're wrong.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Virgo » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:41 pm

Center Channel wrote:Emptiness is conditioned. Period.

So emptiness is a thing?

Kevin
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:42 pm

Wow. People. We're supposedly Vajra siblings, aren't we? Is there really a need to fight?
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Center Channel » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:42 pm

Virgo wrote:
Center Channel wrote:Emptiness is conditioned. Period.

So emptiness is a thing?

Kevin



No its not a thing.

Jesus fracking christ.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Virgo » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:44 pm

Center Channel wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Center Channel wrote:Emptiness is conditioned. Period.

So emptiness is a thing?

Kevin



No its not a thing.

So how is it caused?

Kevin
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby deff » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:44 pm

out of curiosity, what do you think the cause(s) of emptiness is/are?

and if emptiness is caused, then it itself is already empty (since it's dependently originated)

so what's the cause of emptiness's emptiness? this creates an infinite series of "emptinesses" as each would need to be caused and thus create another instance of already being empty...

you mention the analysis that's done to show emptiness is conditioned, would you mind sharing that here? i'd be curious to hear it :smile:
Last edited by deff on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Center Channel » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:46 pm

Virgo wrote:So how is it caused?

Kevin



Do a 7-point Prasangika analyses or similar.

Or look at one that has already been done in the past.

:techproblem:

So that makes 5 times now repeating myself.

Emptiness is empty. Emptiness is not non-empty.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby deff » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:57 pm

yes, of course emptiness is empty - hence why it's emptiness

but by positing that emptiness is caused, you create an infinite regression, as anything caused is already empty, so you would have to explain how something can be empty (i.e. caused) prior to emtpiness itself "arising" (from the view that it's caused). emptiness cannot have a cause as emptiness is synonymous with causality.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:03 pm

Perhaps looking at the difference between gZhi and Kunzhi (Alaya, not necessarily Alaya-Vijnana/Kunzhi-Namshe), could help to clarify.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Center Channel » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:05 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Perhaps looking at the difference between gZhi and Kunzhi (Alaya, not necessarily Alaya-Vijnana/Kunzhi-Namshe), could help to clarify.



I made it clear I am talking strictly about Madhyamaka.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:52 pm

Since this thread is about Dzogchen, then why not discuss this by looking at the teachings on Emptiness in relation to both Madhyamaka and Dzogchen. :idea:
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:21 am

CC,

Namdrol corrected you already.
Let me state this clearly: you are confused about emptiness and DO and don't seem tho have even a shallow grasp of Madhyamka (unlike Namdrol who can be considered an expert about it).
Don't push your mistaken views upon others. This is meant as an informal warning.
Study harder and stop saying nonsense as emptiness being caused.
You would do better if you listened to those who try to correct your mistakes instead of being arrogant. It's you loss.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Emptiness » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:07 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:stop saying nonsense as emptiness being caused.


Hi Dechen Norbu,

If I am following you correctly, you are saying that emptiness in Buddhism is uncaused like Atman, Brahman in Hinduism?

Therefore emptiness is like the god of Buddhism, being uncaused as it were?
Last edited by Emptiness on Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?

Postby Josef » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:53 am

Emptiness wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:stop saying nonsense as emptiness being caused.


Hi Dechen Norbu,

If I am following you correctly, you are saying that emptiness in Buddhism is uncaused like Atman, Brahman in Hinduism?

Therefore emptiness is like the god of Buddhism?

I doubt you really had to go to all the trouble of making yet another account for such a weird post.
A great alternative way to use your time would have been to actually take the advice that has been given in this thread.
Hopefully it just gets shut down at this point.
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