Dzogchenpa by Accident?

[Center Channel]

you say nothing is uncaused, but previously said buddhahood is uncaused

Please don't make up stuff.

[ronnewmexico]

Hmmm..just guessing, perhaps the answer lies in this particular as to how one defines cause.

I have no dog in this pony show...just conjecturing a possible. Perhaps cause is being refered to in differing contexts.
Perhaps then it may be helpful to define cause in this context so all may be on the same page with it.

[deff]

you say nothing is uncaused, but previously said buddhahood is uncaused

Please don't make up stuff.

oh sorry, maybe i misread and thought you said it when someone else did. so you do not think buddhahood is uncaused?

[Mr. G]

Cessation is an absence of causes, by definition.

N

Thats sounds more like nihilism/annhiliationism than cessation.

You don't understand cessation or annhilationism.

And you certainly can treat emptiness as an object and run it through a 7 point Prasangika analyses or similar.

emptiness is not an object

[Center Channel]

You don't understand cessation or annhilationism.

Annhilationism is an absence of causes, by definition.

emptiness is not an object

Of course emptiness is not a object.


But this fact has not stopped any of the Indo-Tibetan Madhyamikas from treating emptiness as an object and running it through a 7 point Prasangika analyses (or similar) to prove that emptiness is conditioned. This is part of Madhyamaka's charm.

P.S. I thought we were having a higher level Madhyamaka discussion than pointing out that emptiness is not a thing.

[Mr. G]

You don't understand cessation or annhilationism.

Annhilationism is an absence of causes, by definition.

Annihiliationism is the view that when a person dies, the 'self' breaks up upon death.

emptiness is not an object

Of course emptiness is not a object.


But this fact has not stopped any of the Indo-Tibetan Madhyamikas from treating emptiness as an object and running it through a 7 point Prasangika analyses (or similar) to prove that emptiness is conditioned. This is part of Madhyamaka's charm.

P.S. I thought we were having a higher level Madhyamaka discussion than pointing out that emptiness is not a thing.

If you backpedal any further, you'll land on your back alwayson....I mean CC.

[Center Channel]

Hmm, repeatedley repeating that emptiness has been analyzed by 7-point analysis as being conditioned is backpedaling?

I even PM'ed you the same thing 3 hours ago:

Are you saying than in the Indo-Tibetan tradition, emptiness itself was never analyzed through a 7 point analyses or similar?

So that makes FOUR times now repeating the same goddamn thing.

Emptiness is conditioned. Period. Take your own advice:

at least have the humility to admit when you're wrong.

[Virgo]

Emptiness is conditioned. Period.

So emptiness is a thing?

Kevin

[treehuggingoctopus]

Wow. People. We're supposedly Vajra siblings, aren't we? Is there really a need to fight?

[Center Channel]

Emptiness is conditioned. Period.

So emptiness is a thing?

Kevin

No its not a thing.

Jesus fracking christ.

[Virgo]

Emptiness is conditioned. Period.

So emptiness is a thing?

Kevin

No its not a thing.

So how is it caused?

Kevin

[deff]

out of curiosity, what do you think the cause(s) of emptiness is/are?

and if emptiness is caused, then it itself is already empty (since it's dependently originated)

so what's the cause of emptiness's emptiness? this creates an infinite series of "emptinesses" as each would need to be caused and thus create another instance of already being empty...

you mention the analysis that's done to show emptiness is conditioned, would you mind sharing that here? i'd be curious to hear it

[Center Channel]

So how is it caused?

Kevin

Do a 7-point Prasangika analyses or similar.

Or look at one that has already been done in the past.



So that makes 5 times now repeating myself.

Emptiness is empty. Emptiness is not non-empty.

[deff]

yes, of course emptiness is empty - hence why it's emptiness

but by positing that emptiness is caused, you create an infinite regression, as anything caused is already empty, so you would have to explain how something can be empty (i.e. caused) prior to emtpiness itself "arising" (from the view that it's caused). emptiness cannot have a cause as emptiness is synonymous with causality.

[Lhug-Pa]

Perhaps looking at the difference between gZhi and Kunzhi (Alaya, not necessarily Alaya-Vijnana/Kunzhi-Namshe), could help to clarify.

[Center Channel]

Perhaps looking at the difference between gZhi and Kunzhi (Alaya, not necessarily Alaya-Vijnana/Kunzhi-Namshe), could help to clarify.

I made it clear I am talking strictly about Madhyamaka.

[Lhug-Pa]

Since this thread is about Dzogchen, then why not discuss this by looking at the teachings on Emptiness in relation to both Madhyamaka and Dzogchen.

[Dechen Norbu]

CC,

Namdrol corrected you already.
Let me state this clearly: you are confused about emptiness and DO and don't seem tho have even a shallow grasp of Madhyamka (unlike Namdrol who can be considered an expert about it).
Don't push your mistaken views upon others. This is meant as an informal warning.
Study harder and stop saying nonsense as emptiness being caused.
You would do better if you listened to those who try to correct your mistakes instead of being arrogant. It's you loss.

[Emptiness]

stop saying nonsense as emptiness being caused.

Hi Dechen Norbu,

If I am following you correctly, you are saying that emptiness in Buddhism is uncaused like Atman, Brahman in Hinduism?

Therefore emptiness is like the god of Buddhism, being uncaused as it were?

[Josef]

stop saying nonsense as emptiness being caused.

Hi Dechen Norbu,

If I am following you correctly, you are saying that emptiness in Buddhism is uncaused like Atman, Brahman in Hinduism?

Therefore emptiness is like the god of Buddhism?

I doubt you really had to go to all the trouble of making yet another account for such a weird post.
A great alternative way to use your time would have been to actually take the advice that has been given in this thread.
Hopefully it just gets shut down at this point.