Dzogchenpa by Accident?
- Dechen Norbu
- Posts: 3056
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
You have some deep misunderstandings there! Right now I must leave in a hurry, but I'm sure someone will correct you. If not, I'll do it when I come back.
-
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
The misunderstandings are on your part my friend.Dechen Norbu wrote:You have some deep misunderstandings there! Right now I must leave in a hurry, but I'm sure someone will correct you. If not, I'll do it when I come back.
I have studied Madhyamaka in depth.
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Center Channel wrote:In Madhyamaka, EVERYTHING is caused......without exception.Dechen Norbu wrote:CC,
That's a very awkward statement. Emptiness being caused... really man, what are you thinking?
Hi CC:
Emptiness is not caused.
Emptiness and DO are synonyms because whatever arises from a cause is empty by definition.
N
-
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Namdrol wrote: Emptiness is not caused.
N
There is nothing that is not caused.
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
You are right about omniscience. But there is a lot of proliferation about omniscience.Namdrol wrote:No, for example, omniscience. This is a quality of Buddhahood that Kamashila, (and numerous other masters) assert arises from a cause. The result, i.e. the two kāyas, is considered to arise from gathering the accumulations of the merit and wisdom. That is what is meant by saying the "the vehicle of the cause". The vehicle of the result is so called, because one takes the result as path in order to rapidly gather the two accumulations.heart wrote:
Well, thanks , but I still can't see Buddha teaching that anatta is produced, nor is emptiness and certainly not the buddhanature (whatever name you want to give it). The Buddhas teaching is always pointing to something that already is there.
/magnus
N
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Emptiness isn't a thing, it is freedom from all extremes, hence it cannot be caused, destroyed, etc.Center Channel wrote:Namdrol wrote: Emptiness is not caused.
N
There is nothing that is not caused.
-
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Sure I agree with all that.Namdrol wrote: Emptiness isn't a thing, it is freedom from all extremes, hence it cannot be caused, destroyed, etc.
But do you agree with this statement from Madhayamaka POV? :
"There is nothing that is not caused."
Last edited by Center Channel on Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
You dove in a few times, but you need to go deep like a Navy Seal. The war on Ignorance is only won by Spec Warfare.Center Channel wrote: I have studied Madhyamaka in depth.
Kevin
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Space and cessation are not caused, so, no, the statement is not completely correct from a Madhyamaka POV.Center Channel wrote:Sure I agree with all that.Namdrol wrote: Emptiness isn't a thing, it is freedom from all extremes, hence it cannot be caused, destroyed, etc.
But do you agree with this statement from Madhayamaka POV? :
"There is nothing that is not caused."
-
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
If you are positing something that is uncaused/nonconditioned permanent, as you do here, you really lose Madhyamaka view IMONamdrol wrote: Space and cessation are not caused
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
As has been said, Emptiness is not a thing or a something, so Emptiness is therefore uncaused. So no one here is saying that anything is uncaused.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Lhug-Pa wrote:So no one here is saying that anything is uncaused.
What was this then?
Namdrol wrote:
Space and cessation are not caused
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
I'm assuming that Namdrol was referring to Emptiness when he said 'Space' and/or 'Cessation'.
Again, since Emptiness is not a thing or a something, it is uncaused. Therefore there is not anything that is uncaused (Emptiness not being a thing).
Although I suppose one could argue that this implies that Emptiness is a mere nothingness, even though that's not what I necessarily meant to imply.
Again, since Emptiness is not a thing or a something, it is uncaused. Therefore there is not anything that is uncaused (Emptiness not being a thing).
Although I suppose one could argue that this implies that Emptiness is a mere nothingness, even though that's not what I necessarily meant to imply.
-
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Namdrol wrote: Space and cessation are not caused
Of course cessation is caused.
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
CC:Center Channel wrote:Namdrol wrote: Space and cessation are not caused
Of course cessation is caused.
What are the three unconditioned things?
5c. Space and the two types of extinctions.
- Abhidharmakosabhasyam
You need to stop playing expert and study more. If not, at least have the humility to admit when you're wrong.
I highly recommended Namdrol's course here which I audited:
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=3430" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=5295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- How foolish you are,
grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
- Vasubandhu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Center Channel wrote:Namdrol wrote: Space and cessation are not caused
Of course cessation is caused.
Nope. Cessation is an absence of causes, by definition.
N
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Center Channel wrote:If you are positing something that is uncaused/nonconditioned permanent, as you do here, you really lose Madhyamaka view IMONamdrol wrote: Space and cessation are not caused
Space is uncaused, unconditioned.
You are really missing the point of Madhyamaka, CC. BUt I have to go out for the day and cannot respond in more detail.
N
-
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Namdrol wrote: Cessation is an absence of causes, by definition.
N
Thats sounds more like nihilism/annhiliationism than cessation.
Mr. G wrote: If not, at least have the humility to admit when you're wrong.
When I'm shown to be wrong, I will.
All I am saying is that there is nothing that is uncaused.
And you certainly can treat emptiness as an object and run it through a 7 point Prasangika analyses or similar.
student of Namkhai Norbu
-
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
Namdrol wrote: You are really missing the point of Madhyamaka, CC. BUt I have to go out for the day and cannot respond in more detail.
N
I can wait.
I'm not going to reply any more until Namdrol does.
student of Namkhai Norbu
Re: Dzogchenpa by Accident?
you say nothing is uncaused, but previously said buddhahood is uncaused
like others have said, emptiness is not a thing, it doesn't arise from causes, it's simply the nature of all phenomena - and since phenomena are empty cause and effect is able to operate. since emtpiness is a requirement for dependent origination, it itself cannot be dependently originated, as the causes to give rise to emptiness must already be empty in order to give rise to a result. but again, emptiness is not a thing.
i think the issue of cessation being uncaused might be a bit of a matter of semantics, in that what obscures cessation can be removed by causes but since cessation itself is unconditioned it cannot arise from causes/conditions
if you accept buddhahood is uncaused as per the dzogchen teachings, i'm surprised you also do not accept these things as uncaused
i'm certainly very very far from an expert though, so don't take my word for it
a major obstacle to learning is in assuming you already know everything. this isn't meant to be an insult, just a suggestion
like others have said, emptiness is not a thing, it doesn't arise from causes, it's simply the nature of all phenomena - and since phenomena are empty cause and effect is able to operate. since emtpiness is a requirement for dependent origination, it itself cannot be dependently originated, as the causes to give rise to emptiness must already be empty in order to give rise to a result. but again, emptiness is not a thing.
i think the issue of cessation being uncaused might be a bit of a matter of semantics, in that what obscures cessation can be removed by causes but since cessation itself is unconditioned it cannot arise from causes/conditions
if you accept buddhahood is uncaused as per the dzogchen teachings, i'm surprised you also do not accept these things as uncaused
i'm certainly very very far from an expert though, so don't take my word for it
a major obstacle to learning is in assuming you already know everything. this isn't meant to be an insult, just a suggestion
Last edited by deff on Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.