Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:35 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Ever heard of Catholic heretics?


Your definition of "Christian" is dubious enough.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Mr. G » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:38 pm

mint wrote:If he openly divulged his personal revelation, he would be considered a heretic and possibly defrocked.


Which is why he doesn't. Why would he need to?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:42 pm

Mr. G wrote:
mint wrote:If he openly divulged his personal revelation, he would be considered a heretic and possibly defrocked.


Which is why he doesn't. Why would he need to?


Conscience.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Mr. G » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:46 pm

mint wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
mint wrote:If he openly divulged his personal revelation, he would be considered a heretic and possibly defrocked.


Which is why he doesn't. Why would he need to?


Conscience.


If everything is the display of wisdom, then conscience concerning what? Remember, this is his personal revelation, not anyone else's.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Pero » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:48 pm

mint wrote:
Pero wrote:Well you're wrong. The primordial state doesn't depend on anything. If someone who has knowledge of the primordial state wants to be a Catholic he can do so.


Explain to me, then, how a person can realize the primordial state and remain a Catholic, believing in God, Christ, the infallibility of the Pope, the seven sacraments, and all of Mother Church. The very nature of Catholic dogma is antithetical to the primordial state.

For a good practitioner those beliefs can simply be ornaments of the primordial state.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:56 pm

Pero wrote:For a good practitioner those beliefs can simply be ornaments of the primordial state.


Ornaments that reify ego. Right.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:03 pm

Mr. G wrote:
If everything is the display of wisdom, then conscience concerning what? Remember, this is his personal revelation, not anyone else's.


Conscience concerning the responsibilities of his holy orders.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Mr. G » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:06 pm

mint wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
If everything is the display of wisdom, then conscience concerning what? Remember, this is his personal revelation, not anyone else's.


Conscience concerning the responsibilities of his holy orders.


And I repeat: If everything is the display of wisdom, and/or ornaments of the primordial state, then conscience concerning what?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Pero » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:06 pm

mint wrote:
Pero wrote:For a good practitioner those beliefs can simply be ornaments of the primordial state.


Ornaments that reify ego. Right.

An ornament is an ornament.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:28 pm

I attended a funeral mass for my aunt this weekend and I had no problem crossing myself, praying the our father, even taking communion as an offering for her, and meaning it. Its all-good in the expanse.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:56 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:I attended a funeral mass for my aunt this weekend and I had no problem crossing myself, praying the our father, even taking communion as an offering for her, and meaning it. Its all-good in the expanse.


How disrespectful.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby wisdom » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:21 pm

mint wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:I attended a funeral mass for my aunt this weekend and I had no problem crossing myself, praying the our father, even taking communion as an offering for her, and meaning it. Its all-good in the expanse.


How disrespectful.


Actually it would be disrespectful for gad to be at a funeral amongst all these religious catholics and refuse to take communion, refuse to pray, refuse to cross themselves, and make a huge scene and display of the fact that they "don't believe" in the catholic god. That would be the essence of ego. "IM A BUDDHIST IM NOT DOING YOUR STUPID RITUALS!". That would be disrespectful and not only that, but harm the perception of the Dharma and make it appear to be bigoted and narrow minded, which its not.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:38 pm

wisdom wrote:
mint wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:I attended a funeral mass for my aunt this weekend and I had no problem crossing myself, praying the our father, even taking communion as an offering for her, and meaning it. Its all-good in the expanse.


How disrespectful.


Actually it would be disrespectful for gad to be at a funeral amongst all these religious catholics and refuse to take communion, refuse to pray, refuse to cross themselves, and make a huge scene and display of the fact that they "don't believe" in the catholic god. That would be the essence of ego. "IM A BUDDHIST IM NOT DOING YOUR STUPID RITUALS!". That would be disrespectful and not only that, but harm the perception of the Dharma and make it appear to be bigoted and narrow minded, which its not.


The U.S. bishops’ guidelines for receiving Communion state, "We also welcome to this celebration those who do not share our faith in Jesus Christ. While we cannot admit them to Communion, we ask them to offer their prayers for the peace and the unity of the human family."

Because they have not received baptism, the gateway to the other sacraments, non-Christians cannot receive Communion.

So, no, you're wrong: gad receiving Communion was disrespectful.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Josef » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:43 pm

mint wrote:
Because they have not received baptism, the gateway to the other sacraments, non-Christians cannot receive Communion.

So, no, you're wrong: gad receiving Communion was disrespectful.

How do you know Gad has not been baptized and taken communion?
Maybe he/she was raised Catholic?
Some serious limiting and conjecture going on in this thread.
Pretty bad in general but today is a really bad day for this kind of nonsense.
It's ganapuja day. I think we all have better things to do.
Last edited by Josef on Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Sönam » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:44 pm

mint wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:I attended a funeral mass for my aunt this weekend and I had no problem crossing myself, praying the our father, even taking communion as an offering for her, and meaning it. Its all-good in the expanse.


How disrespectful.


You miss the point mint, we have to go in essence ... then we can practice any tradition.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby wisdom » Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:51 pm

mint wrote:So, no, you're wrong: gad receiving Communion was disrespectful.


Only if you believe in the word of U.S. Catholic Bishops.

I would rather look at things from a situational perspective and say that whats respectful is what causes the least distress to the least amount of people. Not to mention in Buddhism gad's intention far outweighed some doctrine created long after the death of Christ, and in Buddhism intention is the foundation of everything (Bodhicitta).
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:09 pm

ChNNR explicitly and repeatedly said that a good Dzogchen practitioner has no problems participating in Christian (or any other non-Buddhist) rites - and does so if the situation requires her to do so, e.g., if to do otherwise would be to offend her family. More than that, He would attend church service Himself with the first Italian family he lived with in the early 1960s.

But, enough is indeed enough:

Nangwa wrote:Some serious limiting and conjecture going on in this thread.
Pretty bad in general but today is a really bad day for this kind of nonsense.
It's ganapuja day. I think we all have better things to do.


:good:
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby alwayson » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:55 pm

wisdom wrote:Only if you believe in the word of U.S. Catholic Bishops.



mint is right.

You don't know many Catholics do you?

Even baptized Catholics themselves are not supposed to participate in communion under certain circumstances.
Last edited by alwayson on Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:09 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:ChNNR explicitly and repeatedly said that a good Dzogchen practitioner has no problems participating in Christian (or any other non-Buddhist) rites:


But he would want you do it respectfully, understanding and not transgressing their limitations -- and in this case, if that limitation meant that one should not take part in the sacrements of the Church since one was not baptized, one should not. For example, I was never baptized, and I have never taken part in any Church sacrements and never would.

ChNN also makes a point about following the laws of the country one is in. Canon law specifically forbids non-Christians from participating in the sacrements.

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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby gad rgyangs » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:22 am

btw i am born Catholic, baptised and confirmed. i dont consider myself a christian but ill say again: its all-good in the expanse.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
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