Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:34 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
But these are only your ideas, Mint, regarding what the hypothetical priest would do in such a situation. Please note that in the past Dzogchen was considered to be a heresy, and because of that villified, by quite a few Vajrayana masters - and some of the students of these masters did practice Dzogchen in secret; they surely weren't hypocrites, were they?

These days Namkhai Norbu has got a lot of Gelugpa students who may also happen to wish to keep their Dzogchen practice secret - and he does have, or so I am told, both lay Christians and Christian monks as students, who may be facing a similar dilemma. Yet they do stay Christian, and don't get disrobed - are we arrogant enough to acuse them of hypocrisy without knowing their reasons for what they do or fail to do?


If they cling to illusions such as Christ and God, they don't practice Dzogchen.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:41 pm

mint wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
But these are only your ideas, Mint, regarding what the hypothetical priest would do in such a situation. Please note that in the past Dzogchen was considered to be a heresy, and because of that villified, by quite a few Vajrayana masters - and some of the students of these masters did practice Dzogchen in secret; they surely weren't hypocrites, were they?

These days Namkhai Norbu has got a lot of Gelugpa students who may also happen to wish to keep their Dzogchen practice secret - and he does have, or so I am told, both lay Christians and Christian monks as students, who may be facing a similar dilemma. Yet they do stay Christian, and don't get disrobed - are we arrogant enough to acuse them of hypocrisy without knowing their reasons for what they do or fail to do?


If they cling to illusions such as Christ and God, they don't practice Dzogchen.


Sure. Why do you assume they do?
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Josef » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:47 pm

mint wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
But these are only your ideas, Mint, regarding what the hypothetical priest would do in such a situation. Please note that in the past Dzogchen was considered to be a heresy, and because of that villified, by quite a few Vajrayana masters - and some of the students of these masters did practice Dzogchen in secret; they surely weren't hypocrites, were they?

These days Namkhai Norbu has got a lot of Gelugpa students who may also happen to wish to keep their Dzogchen practice secret - and he does have, or so I am told, both lay Christians and Christian monks as students, who may be facing a similar dilemma. Yet they do stay Christian, and don't get disrobed - are we arrogant enough to acuse them of hypocrisy without knowing their reasons for what they do or fail to do?


If they cling to illusions such as Christ and God, they don't practice Dzogchen.

So what?
That is up to them to figure out. Just like it's up to you, and me, and the rest of us to figure out how to work with our circumstances and practice in order to get the most benefit.
Why worry so much about this?
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:49 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sure. Why do you assume they do?


Because you told me that they are lay Christians and monks.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby alwayson » Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:50 pm

Mint,

What about a Catholic priest getting Dzogchen direct transmission under the guise of debunking Dzogchen?

This may be allowed by the Catholic Church...
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Pero » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:03 pm

mint wrote:
ngodrup wrote:The implication seems to be that a Catholic Priest could say mass,
counsel people, write sermons consistent with the beliefs of others
without damage to his practice.


Which would be a complete and utter farce.

Life is a complete and utter farce.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:09 pm

mint wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sure. Why do you assume they do?


Because you told me that they are lay Christians and monks.


The fact that they are lay Christians or Christian monks does not necessarily entail their "cling[ing] to illusions such as Christ and God".
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Sönam » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:26 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
mint wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sure. Why do you assume they do?


Because you told me that they are lay Christians and monks.


The fact that they are lay Christians or Christian monks does not necessarily entail their "cling[ing] to illusions such as Christ and God".


Also many students of Rinpoché, having received DT, still cling to many illusions ... even such as dharmakaya and so on.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:52 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
The fact that they are lay Christians or Christian monks does not necessarily entail their "cling[ing] to illusions such as Christ and God".


Then I seriously question your understanding of "Christian."
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:53 pm

alwayson wrote:Mint,

What about a Catholic priest getting Dzogchen direct transmission under the guise of debunking Dzogchen?

This may be allowed by the Catholic Church...


I seriously doubt that the Vatican is concerned with debunking Dzogchen - of all things. Islam is much more of an international threat. However, there are priests who are investigating the Rainbow Body phenomenon, but they are doing so under the ruse of proving the resurrection of Christ.

http://www.snowlionpub.com/pages/N59_9.html
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby alwayson » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:05 pm

Work with me here.

I'm trying to help you think of a situation where a Catholic priest can legitimately get Dzogchen transmission.

Actually you should just ask your local Catholic priest, if such a situation exists.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:25 pm

alwayson wrote:I'm trying to help you think of a situation where a Catholic priest can legitimately get Dzogchen transmission.


Priests are oftentimes invited to inter-religious functions. However, my point is that the moment the priest engages in transmission, visualizes Garab Dorje or Padmasambhava and takes refuge in the master, divinity and dakinis, he's effectively renounced his Catholicism whether he knows it or not.

What I'm saying is that a Catholic priest cannot get transmission, realize his primordial state, and remain Catholic. Rinpoche's statements in the book seem to suggest otherwise.

Perhaps Rinpoche was making the rhetorical point that past, present and future affiliations dissolve in Dzogchen, but if so, it was carelessly worded.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:30 pm

mint wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
The fact that they are lay Christians or Christian monks does not necessarily entail their "cling[ing] to illusions such as Christ and God".


Then I seriously question your understanding of "Christian."


Aha. So you argue that being a "Christian" equals "cling[ing] to illusions such as Christ and God"? A nice, neat and clear definition of "Christianity" you've got, granted. Only I'm afraid there's (relatively) plenty of cases in which it need not pertain to reality.

mint wrote:Priests are oftentimes invited to inter-religious functions. However, my point is that the moment the priest engages in transmission, visualizes Garab Dorje or Padmasambhava and takes refuge in the master, divinity and dakinis, he's effectively renounced his Catholicism whether he knows it or not.


That's your view - not the priest's. Why don't you talk about that to some concrete, real-life "Christian" Dzogchenpa, and not to yourself? The answers might be surprising.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:39 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Aha. So you argue that being a "Christian" equals "cling[ing] to illusions such as Christ and God"? A nice, neat and clear definition of "Christianity" you've got, granted. Only I'm afraid there's (relatively) plenty of cases in which it need not pertain to reality.


And you argue for a delusion of a delusion.

mint wrote:
That's your view - not the priest's. Why don't you talk about that to some concrete, real-life "Christian" Dzogchenpa, and not to yourself?


Delusion of a delusion.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:43 pm

Nice wordplay. Now, what was it that you wanted to say?

Btw, these guys are your Vajra sisters and brothers. Why not show some respect to them - and, at the very least, give them the benefit of doubt?
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Pero » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:59 pm

mint wrote:What I'm saying is that a Catholic priest cannot get transmission, realize his primordial state, and remain Catholic.

Well you're wrong. The primordial state doesn't depend on anything. If someone who has knowledge of the primordial state wants to be a Catholic he can do so.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Mr. G » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:12 pm

mint wrote:What I'm saying is that a Catholic priest cannot get transmission, realize his primordial state, and remain Catholic. Rinpoche's statements in the book seem to suggest otherwise.


The way I took Rinpoche's statements was that a Catholic priest would get transmission, realize his primordial state and remain in the guise of being a Catholic. I would venture the following reasons:

1. For example, the Madonna would be an emanation of wisdom, so personally, there would be no problem for the Catholic priest (I believe he mentioned a similar example of the Madonna in the Vajrakiliaya teaching I heard on CD).

2. If he openly divulged his personal revelation, this could cause other Catholics to completely lose interest in any spiritual practice. So, he keeps his samaya and remains silent.

I don't see the big deal. The hijiri Ippen used to pay respects and meditate at temples dedicated to Kami. To him, they were all the emanation of Amida.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:19 pm

That's exactly how I understood it, too.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:28 pm

Pero wrote:Well you're wrong. The primordial state doesn't depend on anything. If someone who has knowledge of the primordial state wants to be a Catholic he can do so.


Explain to me, then, how a person can realize the primordial state and remain a Catholic, believing in God, Christ, the infallibility of the Pope, the seven sacraments, and all of Mother Church. The very nature of Catholic dogma is antithetical to the primordial state.

Mr. G wrote:
2. If he openly divulged his personal revelation, this could cause other Catholics to completely lose interest in any spiritual practice. So, he keeps his samaya and remains silent.


If he openly divulged his personal revelation, he would be considered a heretic and possibly defrocked.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:32 pm

Ever heard of Catholic heretics?
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