Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Malcolm » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:24 am

gad rgyangs wrote:btw i am born Catholic, baptised and confirmed. i dont consider myself a christian but ill say again: its all-good in the expanse.



Then, no problem. As far as they are concerend, you are still Catholic.

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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:08 pm

Mr. G wrote:And I repeat: If everything is the display of wisdom, and/or ornaments of the primordial state, then conscience concerning what?


You're right. And you may have saved me a lot of time and energy. Why worry with learning anything more about Buddhism - much less Tibetan Buddhism? i obviously can just continue being a practicing Catholic while learning Dzogchen from Namkhai Norbu.

:thanks:
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Mr. G » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:15 pm

mint wrote:
Mr. G wrote:And I repeat: If everything is the display of wisdom, and/or ornaments of the primordial state, then conscience concerning what?


You're right. And you may have saved me a lot of time and energy. Why worry with learning anything more about Buddhism - much less Tibetan Buddhism? i obviously can just continue being a practicing Catholic while learning Dzogchen from Namkhai Norbu.

:thanks:


You've thorougly missed the points in this thread

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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby alwayson » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:04 am

mint wrote:You're right. And you may have saved me a lot of time and energy. Why worry with learning anything more about Buddhism - much less Tibetan Buddhism? i obviously can just continue being a practicing Catholic while learning Dzogchen from Namkhai Norbu.

:thanks:



Unlike protestants, I thought Catholics have to go to confession before communion?

So how can you be a practicing Catholic?
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:02 am

alwayson wrote:

Unlike protestants, I thought Catholics have to go to confession before communion?

So how can you be a practicing Catholic?


Everything is a display of wisdom.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Mr. G » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:20 am

mint wrote:
alwayson wrote:

Unlike protestants, I thought Catholics have to go to confession before communion?

So how can you be a practicing Catholic?


Everything is a display of wisdom.


For the Dzogchenpa who has genuinely acquired that POV, yes.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:29 am

Mr. G wrote:
mint wrote:
Everything is a display of wisdom.


For the Dzogchenpa who has genuinely acquired that POV, yes.


Then I'm in good company.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Mr. G » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:52 am

mint wrote:
Mr. G wrote:
mint wrote:
Everything is a display of wisdom.


For the Dzogchenpa who has genuinely acquired that POV, yes.


Then I'm in good company.


As long as you're sincerely pursuing the study and practice of Dzogchen, yes.

Just remember, the parrot that can repeat Garab Dorje's three statments does not mean it has the correct view...just as sticking feathers up one's butt does not make one a chicken.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:14 am

mint wrote:
Everything is a display of wisdom.


At some point, if you experience it yourself... you'll have to see that the state which dzogchen reveals is the same state which causes the few catholics(or persons of whatever denominations) who experience it to say "i've seen god". And that state is prior to thoughts and concepts which would place it into a certain belief system. You have to 'believe' catholicism. What dzogchen points to requires no belief. The visualizations of Garab Dorje or Padmasambhava or what have you... dakinis and all the rest of it are all supportive practices (not to be reified as truly existing objective elements of experience like catholicism projects) which are implemented to take you to the culmination or reveal the state in its fullness. And the culmination or a small taste of it will knock your socks off. In that state the notion of you being an individual in relation to a belief system with rules and regulations will be seen for what they are, which are mere constructs in mind. As a subject relating to an object you partake in catholicism and abide by it's teachings, you identify with concepts, ideas, thoughts, notions which construct your experience to be a certain way. But if dzogchen is applied earnestly and correctly, it will annihilate the concreteness of these subject/object dichotomies... and as others were saying in this thread, the concepts, ideas, thoughts, notions (which ARE catholicism) will be ornaments of that state.. they'll BE that state... timeless, unborn, undying. And yes you'd still be free to partake in catholicism (or any activity for that matter... worship satan.. whatever) you'd be swimming in yourself... and even that is a misleading notion. I'm not sure if you grasp the monumental degree of this teaching but until it's experienced it will remain on the level with catholicism as a nice idea.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:52 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:and as others were saying in this thread, the concepts, ideas, thoughts, notions (which ARE catholicism) will be ornaments of that state.. they'll BE that state... timeless, unborn, undying. And yes you'd still be free to partake in catholicism (or any activity for that matter... worship satan.. whatever) you'd be swimming in yourself...


I get that - now.

My whole argument, which was the result of misunderstanding Rinpoche's statement, rested on the pre-ornament level, though. At that level, a Catholic priest fooling with Dzogchen is no different than having a sexual affair. There doesn't seem to be enough knowledge on this board about Catholicism to wage a fair debate on this point, though. So, ultimately, who cares? I no longer do.

and even that is a misleading notion. I'm not sure if you grasp the monumental degree of this teaching but until it's experienced it will remain on the level with catholicism as a nice idea.


Why should I grasp the monumental degree of this teaching? I've not even received transmission.

If Dzogchen is about acknowledging your state - well, my state is !@#$% up.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:04 pm

mint wrote:There doesn't seem to be enough knowledge on this board about Catholicism to wage a fair debate on this point, though.


You're saying we don't know enough about Catholicism to talk about it. Hasn't it occured to you that it is you whose knowledge of Catholicism could be somewhat limited?
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:09 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
mint wrote:There doesn't seem to be enough knowledge on this board about Catholicism to wage a fair debate on this point, though.


You're saying we don't know enough about Catholicism to talk about it. Hasn't it occured to you that it is you whose knowledge of Catholicism could be somewhat limited?


Delusion of a delusion.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:21 pm

Tashi delek,

Mint,

- What could be in brief the defenition of a Catholic ?
- What could be in brief the defenition of a Dzogchenpa ?
- What could be in brief the similarities between a Dzogchenpa and a Catholic?
- What don' t they share at all ?

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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:35 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:- What could be in brief the defenition of a Catholic ?


This is not brief, but some clarification is needed:

The fickle definition which some are attempting to advance in this thread is that of a professed Catholic. This is someone who was, extremely loosely, baptized and confirmed into the Catholic Church. Such a person is recorded in the Church register as being baptized and confirmed "Catholic" even if their later personal beliefs do not accord with that of even the most liberal form of Catholicism; that is to say, even those individuals who begin practicing Buddhism, or occultism, or become secular humanists are still recognized as Catholic according to the register. Once a Catholic, always a Catholic - unless you make a formal statement of defection. Even being excommunicated does not completely lose you the "license" to practice which baptism and confirmation grants the individual; rather, the license is lost temporarily until a confession is made to the Pope. So, the grace of being baptized is indispensible. Many European countries are a primary example of this type of Catholicism. "Catholic," in this particular sense, more or less serves as little more than an epithet and a gateway into social functions and certain holidays, e.g., weddings, funerals, Easter, Christmas, etc..

The problem with the above application of the term "Catholic" lies in its arbitrariness and its convienience. I mean, if I don't believe that a fellow named Gautama, a.k.a The Buddha, was awakened, that there is no enlightenment, or karma, etc., yet label myself as Buddhist so that I can go to festivals with my family or so that I can marry a certain person, etc., will other Buddhists acknowledge me as Buddhist? Anyone reading this response of mine need only review the recent discussions with KevinSolway in order to answer that question.

A practicing Catholic, in addition to being baptized, goes to confession at least once a year, receives communion at least once a year, and goes to Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation.

On an ultimate level, though, thinking of the mystical writings of Juan de la Cruz and Thomas Merton, a Catholic is someone who strives to achieve unity with God through the sacraments. Baptism, confirmation, confession, and communion (as outlined under the definition of a practicing Catholic) are all sacraments.

- What could be in brief the defenition of a Dzogchenpa ?


I'm still learning. My basic understanding is that it is a person who receives introduction from a qualified master and devotes his/her energy to discovering and maintaining the primordial nature.

- What could be in brief the similarities between a Dzogchenpa and a Catholic?


There could potentially be some correlation between the primordial state and the beatific vision. Except, a Catholic and a Dzogchenpa would definitely disagree on when those occur.

There could also potentially be some correlation between the primordial state of Dzogchen and the primordial, sinless state of mankind as recorded in the Book of Genesis. Again, Catholics and Dzogchenpas would disagree on when that primordial state is transmitted.

- What don' t they share at all ?


Quite a few things.

For one, the Dzogchenpa believes that access to the primordial state begins with the guru. For a Catholic, access to the "primordial state" begins with baptism.

For the Dzogchenpa, the individual is the end in himself. For a Catholic, Jesus and the sacraments are the means to an end.

Hopefully this elucidates my opinion somewhat.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:58 pm

For the Dzogchenpa, the individual is the end in himself.

It elucidates you are still very far away from having at least an intellectual grasp about Dzogchen, that's for sure! :lol:
Take your time mint. You stress yourself terribly without need. :cheers:
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:01 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:It elucidates you are still very far away from having at least an intellectual grasp about Dzogchen, that's for sure! :lol:


:reading:
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:04 pm

:lol:
Seriously, take your time. You beat yourself up too much.
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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby mint » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:13 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Seriously, take your time. You beat yourself up too much.


Then nothing much has changed in 20 years. :P

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Re: Dzogchen and Religious Pluralism

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:47 pm

Well, at least you're a great chap and have the will and the means to do fine. :thumbsup:

Thread closed at the OP's request.
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