My filled Tara statue (questions)

[muni]

Any focus, any fixation is poison. nothing to adopt or abandon, nothing new to obtain trhough fabrications. Lama Mipham.

[gregkavarnos]

I read an account where two high level practitioners engaged in sexual union during a ganapuja in order to give birth to a tulku (which they did). This information is available on a public document which is why I have no qualms repeating it here. You reckon they put a blindfold on their statues and tangkas before engaging in the act? So quite obviously it is not the act itself which is "to blame" (nudity, fornication,etc...) but our mental condition during the action.

PS Anyway, given that enlightened beings can appear anywhere and take any "form" it seems unlikely that putting up a curtain will change anything to any significant degree for the enlightened ones but maybe it may change how the people who put up the curtain feel.

[Clarence]

Care to share the link to that story? Sounds interesting.

[heart]

From a Dzogchen perspective, what are some thoughts on how my relationship should be to this Tara?

From the Dzogchen perspective, there is no basis for relating to Tara. However, there is plenty of benefit from practicing the visualization, mantra recitation, etc., while also applying dzogchen teachings.

Of course there is, Garab Dorje received the Dzogchen teachings from Vajrasattva. Vajrasattva is a Samboghakaya Buddha just as Tara is. Also, from memory, ChNN says somewhere "Tara is the state of Dzogchen" or something similar.
I think you are confusing your own ideas about the method of Yidam practice and the Samboghakaya. But, if it isn't helpful for your Dzogchen practice to do Tara, why would ChNN teach it?

/magnus

[Sönam]

ChNN says somewhere "Tara is the state of Dzogchen" or something similar.

/magnus

Yes, he did ! ... and the base for relation is the base itself (gZhi)

Sönam

[padma norbu]

I read an account where two high level practitioners engaged in sexual union during a ganapuja in order to give birth to a tulku (which they did). This information is available on a public document which is why I have no qualms repeating it here. You reckon they put a blindfold on their statues and tangkas before engaging in the act? So quite obviously it is not the act itself which is "to blame" (nudity, fornication,etc...) but our mental condition during the action.

PS Anyway, given that enlightened beings can appear anywhere and take any "form" it seems unlikely that putting up a curtain will change anything to any significant degree for the enlightened ones but maybe it may change how the people who put up the curtain feel.

I don't understand why you are harping on this. It's already been covered. Samantabhadra is naked, Garab Dorje is naked, nudity as something "disrespectful" is obviously conceptual, as is the maintaining of an altar, as is "proper" treatment of dharma texts, etc.

[Pema Rigdzin]

So quite obviously it is not the act itself which is "to blame" (nudity, fornication,etc...) but our mental condition during the action.

I think people pulling a curtain or closing shrine doors during sexual activity are working with their circumstances and simply being honest with themselves about what level their practice is at: most practitioners are still a ways off from either staying in rigpa or maintaining divine pride and pure perception a la generation stage while they're getting it on... so people are being honest about their mental state during sex and are therefore trying to heed the relative injunction not to have sex in the presence of representations of the Three Jewels. Makes perfect sense to me: working with circumstances, acknowledging that karma is infallible and will be incurred when discursive mind is involved.

[padma norbu]

So quite obviously it is not the act itself which is "to blame" (nudity, fornication,etc...) but our mental condition during the action.

I think people pulling a curtain or closing shrine doors during sexual activity are working with their circumstances and simply being honest with themselves about what level their practice is at: most practitioners are still a ways off from either staying in rigpa or maintaining divine pride and pure perception a la generation stage while they're getting it on... so people are being honest about their mental state during sex and are therefore trying to heed the relative injunction not to have sex in the presence of representations of the Three Jewels. Makes perfect sense to me: working with circumstances, acknowledging that karma is infallible and will be incurred when discursive mind is involved.

Sex was newly introduced to this thread by this little story, but since it was brought up, it reminds me of the story of the yogi who tried to rape the girl in the field because he saw that a great practitioner was about to be reborn as a horse. Once he saw the great practitioner entered the horse's womb, he gave up and explained himself to the woman. I think if you are having tantric sex, especially to give birth to a great practitioner, it is completely different from regular sex, which makes this comparison so strange to begin with. Engaging in wanton sexual desire in front of a consecrated statue would be like getting wasted in front of your shrine.

[muni]

Tell me:
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is possible?
While not such grasping; what's to see?

We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception. Also the immorality of such talk or the seeing in what it meant is dependent.

[padma norbu]

Tell me:
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is working?
While not such grasping; what's to see?

We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception.

Tell me, what does "sweeping away in interest to object is working" mean?

[muni]

Tell me:
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is working?
While not such grasping; what's to see?

We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception.

Tell me, what does "sweeping away in interest to object is working" mean?

Distraction: mind getting focussed on object. Or awareness looking for other then itself.

[padma norbu]

Tell me:
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is working?
While not such grasping; what's to see?

We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception.

Tell me, what does "sweeping away in interest to object is working" mean?

Distraction: mind getting focussed on object. Or awareness looking for other then itself.

Ah, it was very strangely worded the first time.

Anyway, I don't really see the point of the statement in relation to the context of this discussion so far. I'm going to treat it as a rhetorical Yoda-ism.

[muni]

Tara is the state of Dzogchen. Then regarding this nondual awareness, or turning in distraction is the relation to the context.

[mint]

In the Buddhist context of filling a Buddha statue with mantras and other meaningful substances, consecration refers to taking the filled statue and reciting a liturgy and doing a visualization in which one requests that the respective Buddha come to take its place in the statue and remain there are an object of refuge through which one can generate merit. In other words, due to one's request, the wisdom deity manifests an emanation imbues the statue with its awakened presence, and this lends special support to one's practice of prostrations and offerings to the Three Jewels/Three Roots.

That's exactly what I thought it was. And, psychologically speaking, on a pragmatic level, this mode of regarding something as consecrated does not differ much from a Christian understanding. Or a Sufi one. Or a Ba'hai one. As I've said already - I don't think this can be regarded strictly as a cultural phenomenon, but as more of an anthropological one. There's nothing unique about such behavior.

[gregkavarnos]

I don't understand why you are harping on this. It's already been covered. Samantabhadra is naked, Garab Dorje is naked, nudity as something "disrespectful" is obviously conceptual, as is the maintaining of an altar, as is "proper" treatment of dharma texts, etc.

Dude, I am just taking part in an open public discussion, if you don't like what I am saying or if it is of no interest to you you can just ignore me you know. Chill out!

[Pema Rigdzin]

Tell me:
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is working?
While not such grasping; what's to see?

We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception.

Tell me, what does "sweeping away in interest to object is working" mean?

Distraction: mind getting focussed on object. Or awareness looking for other then itself.

Muni, most so-called Dzogchen practitioners still don't know for sure what rigpa is, so they are distracted always, from the POV of Dzogchen. Even most people who do know what rigpa is are still distracted most of the time, grasping at mundane perception and non-virtuous objects. So for these people, a fabricated meditation on a yidam, for instance, is what you can call a grade A, first class distraction. It's very beneficial in such a context. There is no Dzogchen master who has ever lived who has said aspiring Dzogchen practitioners should not do such practices or that they are harmful for Dzogchen practice.

[padma norbu]

I don't understand why you are harping on this. It's already been covered. Samantabhadra is naked, Garab Dorje is naked, nudity as something "disrespectful" is obviously conceptual, as is the maintaining of an altar, as is "proper" treatment of dharma texts, etc.

Dude, I am just taking part in an open public discussion, if you don't like what I am saying or if it is of no interest to you you can just ignore me you know. Chill out!

LOL, that is funny considering the PM I just barely sent to you about PMs vs. public discussion. I used the same wording: "If it's public discussion, I can just ignore it."

Anyway, there is nothing to "chill" about. As part of the public discussion, I really didn't see why you were harping on it. That's all. It's really not that relevant, imo. A truly realized dzogchenpa might use his tantras as toilet paper, but that doesn't mean I'm going to.

[padma norbu]

Muni, most so-called Dzogchen practitioners still don't know for sure what rigpa is, so they are distracted always, from the POV of Dzogchen. Even most people who do know what rigpa is, experientially, are distracted most of the time, grasping at mundane perception and non-virtuous objects. So for these people, a fabricated meditation on a yidam, for instance, is what you can call a grade A, first class distraction. It's very beneficial in such a context. There is no Dzogchen master who has ever lived who has said aspiring Dzogchen practitioners should not do such practices or that they are harmful for Dzogchen practice.

And if you yourself aren't in rigpa 24/7, then if you're choosing not to do any "lower yana" practices, you're wasting your precious human life on totally mundane experience in between a few flickers of rigpa here and there, if even that.

Yes, and to bring this back to my original point, the reason I initially dropped Tara practice was because I couldn't hold it straight in my head. Rather than maintaining dzogchen view, I was slipping into this grade A, first class distraction. Now, I have more experience, it is less confusing, but still a bit confusing. Since I have confusion, I want to fill up my time with beneficial actions rather than deluding myself that I am maintaining dzogchen view or at least trying and progressing. When I do Tara practice, everything gets better; there is no denying that.

[muni]

Muni, most so-called Dzogchen practitioners still don't know for sure what rigpa is, so they are distracted always, from the POV of Dzogchen. Even most people who do know what rigpa is are still distracted most of the time, grasping at mundane perception and non-virtuous objects. So for these people, a fabricated meditation on a yidam, for instance, is what you can call a grade A, first class distraction. It's very beneficial in such a context. There is no Dzogchen master who has ever lived who has said aspiring Dzogchen practitioners should not do such practices or that they are harmful for Dzogchen practice.

wathever can help must help a magpie not to turn in *distraction*.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Since I have confusion, I want to fill up my time with beneficial actions rather than deluding myself that I am maintaining dzogchen view or at least trying and progressing. When I do Tara practice, everything gets better; there is no denying that.

Definitely, and at the end, I'm sure you're dissolving everything and relaxing in the natural state to boot. Practicing like this and taking to heart advice from lamas like Guru Padmasambhava who said (about beginning Dzogchen practice) "short sessions repeated very often," you can make all your experience a continuous flow of practice and eventually cause everything to be subsumed within rigpa.