My filled Tara statue (questions)
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Any focus, any fixation is poison. nothing to adopt or abandon, nothing new to obtain trhough fabrications. Lama Mipham.
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
I read an account where two high level practitioners engaged in sexual union during a ganapuja in order to give birth to a tulku (which they did). This information is available on a public document which is why I have no qualms repeating it here. You reckon they put a blindfold on their statues and tangkas before engaging in the act? So quite obviously it is not the act itself which is "to blame" (nudity, fornication,etc...) but our mental condition during the action.
PS Anyway, given that enlightened beings can appear anywhere and take any "form" it seems unlikely that putting up a curtain will change anything to any significant degree for the enlightened ones but maybe it may change how the people who put up the curtain feel.
PS Anyway, given that enlightened beings can appear anywhere and take any "form" it seems unlikely that putting up a curtain will change anything to any significant degree for the enlightened ones but maybe it may change how the people who put up the curtain feel.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
-
- Posts: 1005
- Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:19 pm
- Location: Benelux, then USA, now Southern Europe.
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Care to share the link to that story? Sounds interesting.
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Of course there is, Garab Dorje received the Dzogchen teachings from Vajrasattva. Vajrasattva is a Samboghakaya Buddha just as Tara is. Also, from memory, ChNN says somewhere "Tara is the state of Dzogchen" or something similar.Yontan wrote:From the Dzogchen perspective, there is no basis for relating to Tara. However, there is plenty of benefit from practicing the visualization, mantra recitation, etc., while also applying dzogchen teachings.padma norbu wrote: From a Dzogchen perspective, what are some thoughts on how my relationship should be to this Tara?
I think you are confusing your own ideas about the method of Yidam practice and the Samboghakaya. But, if it isn't helpful for your Dzogchen practice to do Tara, why would ChNN teach it?
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Yes, he did ! ... and the base for relation is the base itself (gZhi)heart wrote: ChNN says somewhere "Tara is the state of Dzogchen" or something similar.
/magnus
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
I don't understand why you are harping on this. It's already been covered. Samantabhadra is naked, Garab Dorje is naked, nudity as something "disrespectful" is obviously conceptual, as is the maintaining of an altar, as is "proper" treatment of dharma texts, etc.gregkavarnos wrote:I read an account where two high level practitioners engaged in sexual union during a ganapuja in order to give birth to a tulku (which they did). This information is available on a public document which is why I have no qualms repeating it here. You reckon they put a blindfold on their statues and tangkas before engaging in the act? So quite obviously it is not the act itself which is "to blame" (nudity, fornication,etc...) but our mental condition during the action.
PS Anyway, given that enlightened beings can appear anywhere and take any "form" it seems unlikely that putting up a curtain will change anything to any significant degree for the enlightened ones but maybe it may change how the people who put up the curtain feel.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
-
- Posts: 1292
- Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
- Location: Southern Oregon
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
I think people pulling a curtain or closing shrine doors during sexual activity are working with their circumstances and simply being honest with themselves about what level their practice is at: most practitioners are still a ways off from either staying in rigpa or maintaining divine pride and pure perception a la generation stage while they're getting it on... so people are being honest about their mental state during sex and are therefore trying to heed the relative injunction not to have sex in the presence of representations of the Three Jewels. Makes perfect sense to me: working with circumstances, acknowledging that karma is infallible and will be incurred when discursive mind is involved.gregkavarnos wrote: So quite obviously it is not the act itself which is "to blame" (nudity, fornication,etc...) but our mental condition during the action.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Sex was newly introduced to this thread by this little story, but since it was brought up, it reminds me of the story of the yogi who tried to rape the girl in the field because he saw that a great practitioner was about to be reborn as a horse. Once he saw the great practitioner entered the horse's womb, he gave up and explained himself to the woman. I think if you are having tantric sex, especially to give birth to a great practitioner, it is completely different from regular sex, which makes this comparison so strange to begin with. Engaging in wanton sexual desire in front of a consecrated statue would be like getting wasted in front of your shrine.Pema Rigdzin wrote:I think people pulling a curtain or closing shrine doors during sexual activity are working with their circumstances and simply being honest with themselves about what level their practice is at: most practitioners are still a ways off from either staying in rigpa or maintaining divine pride and pure perception a la generation stage while they're getting it on... so people are being honest about their mental state during sex and are therefore trying to heed the relative injunction not to have sex in the presence of representations of the Three Jewels. Makes perfect sense to me: working with circumstances, acknowledging that karma is infallible and will be incurred when discursive mind is involved.gregkavarnos wrote: So quite obviously it is not the act itself which is "to blame" (nudity, fornication,etc...) but our mental condition during the action.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Tell me:
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is possible?
While not such grasping; what's to see?
We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception. Also the immorality of such talk or the seeing in what it meant is dependent.
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is possible?
While not such grasping; what's to see?
We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception. Also the immorality of such talk or the seeing in what it meant is dependent.
Last edited by muni on Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Tell me, what does "sweeping away in interest to object is working" mean?muni wrote:Tell me:
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is working?
While not such grasping; what's to see?
We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Distraction: mind getting focussed on object. Or awareness looking for other then itself.padma norbu wrote:Tell me, what does "sweeping away in interest to object is working" mean?muni wrote:Tell me:
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is working?
While not such grasping; what's to see?
We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception.
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Ah, it was very strangely worded the first time.muni wrote:Distraction: mind getting focussed on object. Or awareness looking for other then itself.padma norbu wrote:Tell me, what does "sweeping away in interest to object is working" mean?muni wrote:Tell me:
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is working?
While not such grasping; what's to see?
We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception.
Anyway, I don't really see the point of the statement in relation to the context of this discussion so far. I'm going to treat it as a rhetorical Yoda-ism.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Tara is the state of Dzogchen. Then regarding this nondual awareness, or turning in distraction is the relation to the context.
Last edited by muni on Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
That's exactly what I thought it was. And, psychologically speaking, on a pragmatic level, this mode of regarding something as consecrated does not differ much from a Christian understanding. Or a Sufi one. Or a Ba'hai one. As I've said already - I don't think this can be regarded strictly as a cultural phenomenon, but as more of an anthropological one. There's nothing unique about such behavior.Pema Rigdzin wrote:In the Buddhist context of filling a Buddha statue with mantras and other meaningful substances, consecration refers to taking the filled statue and reciting a liturgy and doing a visualization in which one requests that the respective Buddha come to take its place in the statue and remain there are an object of refuge through which one can generate merit. In other words, due to one's request, the wisdom deity manifests an emanation imbues the statue with its awakened presence, and this lends special support to one's practice of prostrations and offerings to the Three Jewels/Three Roots.
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Dude, I am just taking part in an open public discussion, if you don't like what I am saying or if it is of no interest to you you can just ignore me you know. Chill out!padma norbu wrote:I don't understand why you are harping on this. It's already been covered. Samantabhadra is naked, Garab Dorje is naked, nudity as something "disrespectful" is obviously conceptual, as is the maintaining of an altar, as is "proper" treatment of dharma texts, etc.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
-
- Posts: 1292
- Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
- Location: Southern Oregon
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Muni, most so-called Dzogchen practitioners still don't know for sure what rigpa is, so they are distracted always, from the POV of Dzogchen. Even most people who do know what rigpa is are still distracted most of the time, grasping at mundane perception and non-virtuous objects. So for these people, a fabricated meditation on a yidam, for instance, is what you can call a grade A, first class distraction. It's very beneficial in such a context. There is no Dzogchen master who has ever lived who has said aspiring Dzogchen practitioners should not do such practices or that they are harmful for Dzogchen practice.muni wrote:Distraction: mind getting focussed on object. Or awareness looking for other then itself.padma norbu wrote:Tell me, what does "sweeping away in interest to object is working" mean?muni wrote:Tell me:
Sex and meanwhile mind chattering or sweeping away in interest to object is working?
While not such grasping; what's to see?
We shouldn't be fooled by minds stories about right perception.
Last edited by Pema Rigdzin on Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
LOL, that is funny considering the PM I just barely sent to you about PMs vs. public discussion. I used the same wording: "If it's public discussion, I can just ignore it."gregkavarnos wrote:Dude, I am just taking part in an open public discussion, if you don't like what I am saying or if it is of no interest to you you can just ignore me you know. Chill out!padma norbu wrote:I don't understand why you are harping on this. It's already been covered. Samantabhadra is naked, Garab Dorje is naked, nudity as something "disrespectful" is obviously conceptual, as is the maintaining of an altar, as is "proper" treatment of dharma texts, etc.
Anyway, there is nothing to "chill" about. As part of the public discussion, I really didn't see why you were harping on it. That's all. It's really not that relevant, imo. A truly realized dzogchenpa might use his tantras as toilet paper, but that doesn't mean I'm going to.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Yes, and to bring this back to my original point, the reason I initially dropped Tara practice was because I couldn't hold it straight in my head. Rather than maintaining dzogchen view, I was slipping into this grade A, first class distraction. Now, I have more experience, it is less confusing, but still a bit confusing. Since I have confusion, I want to fill up my time with beneficial actions rather than deluding myself that I am maintaining dzogchen view or at least trying and progressing. When I do Tara practice, everything gets better; there is no denying that.Pema Rigdzin wrote: Muni, most so-called Dzogchen practitioners still don't know for sure what rigpa is, so they are distracted always, from the POV of Dzogchen. Even most people who do know what rigpa is, experientially, are distracted most of the time, grasping at mundane perception and non-virtuous objects. So for these people, a fabricated meditation on a yidam, for instance, is what you can call a grade A, first class distraction. It's very beneficial in such a context. There is no Dzogchen master who has ever lived who has said aspiring Dzogchen practitioners should not do such practices or that they are harmful for Dzogchen practice.
And if you yourself aren't in rigpa 24/7, then if you're choosing not to do any "lower yana" practices, you're wasting your precious human life on totally mundane experience in between a few flickers of rigpa here and there, if even that.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
wathever can help must help a magpie not to turn in *distraction*.Pema Rigdzin wrote:Muni, most so-called Dzogchen practitioners still don't know for sure what rigpa is, so they are distracted always, from the POV of Dzogchen. Even most people who do know what rigpa is are still distracted most of the time, grasping at mundane perception and non-virtuous objects. So for these people, a fabricated meditation on a yidam, for instance, is what you can call a grade A, first class distraction. It's very beneficial in such a context. There is no Dzogchen master who has ever lived who has said aspiring Dzogchen practitioners should not do such practices or that they are harmful for Dzogchen practice.
-
- Posts: 1292
- Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
- Location: Southern Oregon
Re: My filled Tara statue (questions)
Definitely, and at the end, I'm sure you're dissolving everything and relaxing in the natural state to boot. Practicing like this and taking to heart advice from lamas like Guru Padmasambhava who said (about beginning Dzogchen practice) "short sessions repeated very often," you can make all your experience a continuous flow of practice and eventually cause everything to be subsumed within rigpa.padma norbu wrote: Since I have confusion, I want to fill up my time with beneficial actions rather than deluding myself that I am maintaining dzogchen view or at least trying and progressing. When I do Tara practice, everything gets better; there is no denying that.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman