Triyik Yeshe Lama.

[Sönam]

But we may also notice that ChNN is not the only one, like he would be on an isolated island, to teach Dzogchen that way. It is also the everlasting approach of many great Dzogchenpa from the past ...

Sönam

[Dechen Norbu]

I also think ChNN gives very solid justifications for his approach. It makes perfect sense. I'm sure you are quite aware of them, Magnus.
It's not that Ngöndro isn't useful. It may be very useful as any other well done practice. It's just not the main point by itself. I would say it can become a hindrance if one gets so attached to it that fails to realize its own essence. From a Dzogchen perspective, it makes much more sense not to be obliged to perform any particular practice with fixed numbers, goals and so on. There are very useful practices one can do to overcome obstacles, whatever they may be, wherever they come from in terms of yanas. However Guru Yoga is the main practice and this makes perfect sense from a Dzogchen perspective. What doesn't seem to make sense from a Dzogchen perspective is the idea of set of templates that fit all practitioners, whatever their circumstances and capacities, to do a full circle and end exactly where they started. Is Ngöndro useful? It can be very useful and I speak from experience. Indispensable? Not a chance. It even goes against the Dzogchen view to say such a thing and although excellent masters recommend Ngöndro, none of them is more of an authority than ChNN to his students.

There are many ways to climb the mountain. So far, ChNN presentation seems the fastest of them all to me. Unfortunately, its so subtle that many miss it, even while being his students. It's so easy to screw up that we must be very careful so that we don't understand ChNN wrong, and this is easier than it seems. In my own experience, I really felt I should empty the cup when I became his student, otherwise I would be mixing my own preconceptions with his teachings even without noticing (I'm sure I still do, but to a lesser degree). The result of such mixture may vary. If having a solid background is definitively helpful, we must keep the pliancy to learn something new, sometimes scandalously new. If we get him, that shows in practice very fast. This has been my experience after spending more than a decade with the tantric approach and a lot of time available to practice in quite good conditions. You just can't compare it. This has been my experience and so it is valid for me and me alone.
I realize ChNN teachings may not fit all people, so everyone should do as they think it's better for themselves. I don't even recommend ChNN to a lot of people these days as I find his teaching so subtle that I guess the chances of not getting him are very high. When I started, his teachings seemed easy, very accessible and nothing special in terms of deepness. That was because I wasn't getting him at all. I think it it doesn't even matter how much one studies. There's a point when it clicks and the pieces come together in such a harmony that you have one of those memorable "aha! moments" that will stay with you from then on. However, if the secondary circumstances are present, people will get to practice Dzogchen like that, so there's really no need to say or recommend anything. I'm quite confident that nobody meets ChNN by chance. Then it's up to us.

Best wishes.

[Malcolm]

In response to Geoff's question:

It is useless to read about togal without introduction to togal.

It can block your practice because it can cause strongly clinging and obsession.

Showing the postures and gazes in an incorrect way will, according to the texts, make your gaze unstable.

Tögal is not especially complicated, but if not approached in correct way, will cause problems for practitioner.

[Jnana]

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

The debate about ChNNR and ngondro has been done to death so many times before ...

[heart]

Or he could keep an open mind and realize there might be more than one path that leads to the top of the mountain.

/magnus

Which would be a bit of a contradiction.
Ngondro as we know it is a Sarma phenomena. The old school Dzogchen tantras dont really call for it.
By keeping an open mind we will be remaining open to the original Nyingma approach.

Longchenpa is not old-school enough for you Nangwa?

/magnus

[Malcolm]

Longchenpa is not old-school enough for you Nangwa?

/magnus

Nope. He is too influenced by Sarma.

Rongzom, Aro Yeshe Jungney, Phang Mipham Gonpo, Chetsun Senge Wangchuk, now that is old school.

N

[heart]

He can keep an open mind, but still follow his master's advice which is not the advice of all these other masters.

Face it Magnus, people in the DC are _never_ going to agree that they have to do ngondro, creation stage, completion stage, etc., since our master says that the tantric approach to these things is not our approach and are not necessary. This is not the path that ChNN has laid for us.

As you well know, our master, ChNN says the only necessary thing for his students is Guru Yoga of White A. On the other hand, he also says that since people have many conditions and circumstances, they should not limit themselves, and this is why he provides methods such as tara, mandarava, namkha, serkyem, chulen, yantra, etc.

I know that very well. I was just pointing out the obvious for those that might not be aware of it. If you approach most Dzogchen masters asking for Dzogchen teachings they might give you teachings and direct introduction but they will also ask you to also do a Ngondro. That tradition is very long going back to at least Longchenpa. It is not a punishment, it is because Guru Yoga is so important and Ngondro is Guru Yoga. There is more to say about that but this might not be the right thread.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

The debate about ChNNR and ngondro has been done to death so many times before ...

It is not a debate. It is plain difference of style. Magnus is very Nyingma in his approach, based on his tradition and teachers. Magnus' idea is that ChNN students do not understand something important.

Personally, I think ChNN is the greatest master of Dzogchen alive. Just read my post on atikosha.org about him. But that is me.

Other people who follow other masters should feel their master and his or her approach is the best. Those of us who follow ChNN need to respect other masters and their students -- we should not get into some trip about this tradition or that tradition. Often these days ChNN is fond of saying that there is no "dzogchen tradition".

We need to strive for mutual respect. That is important.

[heart]

Longchenpa is not old-school enough for you Nangwa?

/magnus

Nope. He is too influenced by Sarma.

Rongzom, Aro Yeshe Jungney, Phang Mipham Gonpo, Chetsun Senge Wangchuk, now that is old school.

N

so please post your proof that they didn't do Ngondro or Keyrim and Dzogrim before or during their Dzogchen practice. They were all pretty involved with Tantra as well, no?

/magnus

[heart]

We need to strive for mutual respect. That is important.

Yes, I feel that there is a lack of respect for the traditional Nyingma style of Dzogchen practice in this and other forums. I think you do understand the point I am trying to make Namdrol.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

Longchenpa is not old-school enough for you Nangwa?

/magnus

Nope. He is too influenced by Sarma.

Rongzom, Aro Yeshe Jungney, Phang Mipham Gonpo, Chetsun Senge Wangchuk, now that is old school.

N

so please post your proof that they didn't do Ngondro or Keyrim and Dzogrim before or during their Dzogchen practice. They were all pretty involved with Tantra as well, no?

/magnus

There is no creation stage, completion stage or deities in Vima Nyinthig.

Rongzom states quite clearly that there is no need for the two stages in the sixth chapter of his major work -- his approach to Dzogchen works equally well if you are a tantric practitioner or not.

Plus there is a broad understanding in sems sde, klong sde, etc. that deity yoga is not necessary.

I don't think Senge Wangchuk was that involved with deity yoga -- there is no evidence that he emphasized it at all. I am sure he knew it, however. Aro Yeshe either.

What you did before you practice Dzogchen is not that important. As you agree already, Dzogchen is not gradual.

N

[Malcolm]

We need to strive for mutual respect. That is important.

Yes, I feel that there is a lack of respect for the traditional Nyingma style of Dzogchen practice in this and other forums. I think you do understand the point I am trying to make Namdrol.

/magnus

Others feel there is a lack of respect for ChNN's style of Dzogchen and that people push this ngondro + two stages approach too hard and want to condition DC practitioners into their way of thinking.

Just accept it, we don't think tantric ngondro is that important over all. No use in trying to convince us.

N

[Dechen Norbu]

Posts with personal attacks have been and will be removed.

Best wishes.

[Pero]

Posts with personal attacks have been and will be removed.

Best wishes.

Tsk. Next time could you email me first so I can read the juicy stuff before you delete them?

[deepbluehum]

Posts with personal attacks have been and will be removed.

Best wishes.

Tsk. Next time could you email me first so I can read the juicy stuff before you delete them?

I was saying Namdrol's comment addresses your criticism of me, that you might think Namdrol is saying not to practice Vajrayana, as you had criticised me to do. I said it in a way that made fun of you. Anyway... My point is that the Dzogchen without two-stages is eerily similar to those two suttas I mentioned and the Bahiya sutta also mentioned by our dharma-friend.

[Dechen Norbu]

Much better.

[deepbluehum]

Much better.

There's no icon where you pat me on the head.

[Pero]

Posts with personal attacks have been and will be removed.

Best wishes.

Tsk. Next time could you email me first so I can read the juicy stuff before you delete them?

I was saying Namdrol's comment addresses your criticism of me, that you might think Namdrol is saying not to practice Vajrayana, as you had criticised me to do. I said it in a way that made fun of you. Anyway... My point is that the Dzogchen without two-stages is eerily similar to those two suttas I mentioned and the Bahiya sutta also mentioned by our dharma-friend.

Oh blast, it was even directed at me and I missed it?
No worries, I can take jokes at my expense.

Hm well, I don't think it's exactly the same thing. For one thing you could argue that Dzogchen is Vajrayana too. And if not, Dzogchen practitioners can use Vajrayana methods and no one is saying they can't or shouldn't, it depends on the person. You on the other hand implied that you can get the same thing like Vajrayana people do just from reading Sutras and not to waste money on receiving Vajrayana teachings (=going to Nepal) because of it. At least that's how it looked to me.

[deepbluehum]

Tsk. Next time could you email me first so I can read the juicy stuff before you delete them?

I was saying Namdrol's comment addresses your criticism of me, that you might think Namdrol is saying not to practice Vajrayana, as you had criticised me to do. I said it in a way that made fun of you. Anyway... My point is that the Dzogchen without two-stages is eerily similar to those two suttas I mentioned and the Bahiya sutta also mentioned by our dharma-friend.

Oh blast, it was even directed at me and I missed it?
No worries, I can take jokes at my expense.

Hm well, I don't think it's exactly the same thing. For one thing you could argue that Dzogchen is Vajrayana too. And if not, Dzogchen practitioners can use Vajrayana methods and no one is saying they can't or shouldn't, it depends on the person. You on the other hand implied that you can get the same thing like Vajrayana people do just from reading Sutras and not to waste money on receiving Vajrayana teachings (=going to Nepal) because of it. At least that's how it looked to me.

You could say Dzogchen is anything you want it to be.