Triyik Yeshe Lama.

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Sönam
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Sönam » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:57 am

But we may also notice that ChNN is not the only one, like he would be on an isolated island, to teach Dzogchen that way. It is also the everlasting approach of many great Dzogchenpa from the past ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:44 pm

I also think ChNN gives very solid justifications for his approach. It makes perfect sense. I'm sure you are quite aware of them, Magnus.
It's not that Ngöndro isn't useful. It may be very useful as any other well done practice. It's just not the main point by itself. I would say it can become a hindrance if one gets so attached to it that fails to realize its own essence. From a Dzogchen perspective, it makes much more sense not to be obliged to perform any particular practice with fixed numbers, goals and so on. There are very useful practices one can do to overcome obstacles, whatever they may be, wherever they come from in terms of yanas. However Guru Yoga is the main practice and this makes perfect sense from a Dzogchen perspective. What doesn't seem to make sense from a Dzogchen perspective is the idea of set of templates that fit all practitioners, whatever their circumstances and capacities, to do a full circle and end exactly where they started. Is Ngöndro useful? It can be very useful and I speak from experience. Indispensable? Not a chance. It even goes against the Dzogchen view to say such a thing and although excellent masters recommend Ngöndro, none of them is more of an authority than ChNN to his students.

There are many ways to climb the mountain. So far, ChNN presentation seems the fastest of them all to me. Unfortunately, its so subtle that many miss it, even while being his students. It's so easy to screw up that we must be very careful so that we don't understand ChNN wrong, and this is easier than it seems. In my own experience, I really felt I should empty the cup when I became his student, otherwise I would be mixing my own preconceptions with his teachings even without noticing (I'm sure I still do, but to a lesser degree). The result of such mixture may vary. If having a solid background is definitively helpful, we must keep the pliancy to learn something new, sometimes scandalously new. If we get him, that shows in practice very fast. This has been my experience after spending more than a decade with the tantric approach and a lot of time available to practice in quite good conditions. You just can't compare it. This has been my experience and so it is valid for me and me alone.
I realize ChNN teachings may not fit all people, so everyone should do as they think it's better for themselves. I don't even recommend ChNN to a lot of people these days as I find his teaching so subtle that I guess the chances of not getting him are very high. When I started, his teachings seemed easy, very accessible and nothing special in terms of deepness. That was because I wasn't getting him at all. I think it it doesn't even matter how much one studies. There's a point when it clicks and the pieces come together in such a harmony that you have one of those memorable "aha! moments" that will stay with you from then on. However, if the secondary circumstances are present, people will get to practice Dzogchen like that, so there's really no need to say or recommend anything. I'm quite confident that nobody meets ChNN by chance. Then it's up to us.

Best wishes.

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Malcolm
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:01 pm

In response to Geoff's question:

It is useless to read about togal without introduction to togal.

It can block your practice because it can cause strongly clinging and obsession.

Showing the postures and gazes in an incorrect way will, according to the texts, make your gaze unstable.

Tögal is not especially complicated, but if not approached in correct way, will cause problems for practitioner.




འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Jnana
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Jnana » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:10 pm

:thumbsup:

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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:47 pm

The debate about ChNNR and ngondro has been done to death so many times before ...

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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby heart » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:50 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:03 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby heart » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:09 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:11 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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heart
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Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby heart » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:13 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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heart
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby heart » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:23 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:34 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:37 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:11 pm

Posts with personal attacks have been and will be removed. :rules: :smile:

Best wishes.

Pero
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Pero » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:45 pm

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

deepbluehum
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:52 pm


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Dechen Norbu
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:57 pm

Much better. :lol:

deepbluehum
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:00 pm


Pero
Posts: 1901
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Pero » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:10 pm

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

deepbluehum
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:05 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:34 pm



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