Triyik Yeshe Lama.

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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Pero » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:28 pm

Jnana wrote:Indeed. There have been translations and commentaries on all aspects of togal available for purchase and for free on the internet for years now.

Such as?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Jnana » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:35 pm

Pero wrote:
Jnana wrote:Indeed. There have been translations and commentaries on all aspects of togal available for purchase and for free on the internet for years now.

Such as?

Here's a PDF of trekcho & togal teachings by Thrangu Rinpcohe: The Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

Also the following:

Natural Liberation includes togal instructions from the terma of Karma Lingpa.

A Spacious Path to Freedom includes togal instructions by Karma Chagme.

Naked Awareness includes further togal instructions from the same teaching by Karma Chagme.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Pero » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:50 pm

Thanks! Where are those cool pictures from?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Paul » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:36 pm

I believe they're from "The Dalai Lama's Secret Temple: Tantric Wall Paintings from Tibet"

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dalai-Lamas-Sec ... 0500510032
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Jnana » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:49 pm

Paul wrote:I believe they're from "The Dalai Lama's Secret Temple: Tantric Wall Paintings from Tibet"

Yeah, the first picture is. The other two are from a small text now located in the The Royal Library, Copenhagen.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:20 am

deepbluehum wrote:I realize this thread is about Triyik Yeshe Lama, but the Bonpo Dzogchen practitioner might be interested to know that the Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen text translated as "Heartdrops of the Dharmakaya" is a very useful instruction that covers all the same topics covered in Yeshe Lama, but has the nice feature of not being wordy and being very down to earth. Of course there are those who will disagree, but I feel the description of the view in the section on Trekcho is very good. I have had the transmissions of many Dzogchen texts and I find myself coming back to "Heartdrops" more and more, especially as my practice develops, I find its simplicity to be easy to read when you need a short glance and don't want to get too heady into information.



Many years ago, in 1992, ChNN advised us not to look at thogal texts prior to receiving total instructions. So people in the DC should not read that or any other togal text just because they feel like it. They should wait until ChNN or some other qualified master can bestow the teaching on them in a proper way.

My point about availability is a little different, however. I feel the text classical texts should be available, since to a large extent they are self-secret. But this does not mean people should just go ahead and read them without having had the instruction from a qualified teacher. If they do, there is a good chance they will create obstacles for their practice. So people should be mature.

N
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby padma norbu » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:21 pm

I read the togel section of Union of Mahammudra and Dzogchen last night on the ride home. Overall, I feel no different about anything except that I actually understand some theory better that before was pretty much completely abstract.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Sönam » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:43 pm

padma norbu wrote:I read the togel section of Union of Mahammudra and Dzogchen last night on the ride home. Overall, I feel no different about anything except that I actually understand some theory better that before was pretty much completely abstract.


Is there really a Tögel section in Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen? ... I doubt.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Paul » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:08 pm

It's not massively detailed, but there are togal teachings in there.
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Sönam » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:29 pm

Paul wrote:It's not massively detailed, but there are togal teachings in there.


Yes, I went in it ... It only introduces the six lamps, without detailled explanation

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby padma norbu » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:47 pm

Sönam wrote:
Paul wrote:It's not massively detailed, but there are togal teachings in there.


Yes, I went in it ... It only introduces the six lamps, without detailled explanation

Sönam


I was referring to the PDF linked above, not the published book by Choki Nyima Rinpoche.

Front page reads:
The Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Venerable Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche
A Commentary On The Direct Instructions of The Great Compassionate One by Karma Chagmey Rinpoche
Translated from Tibetan by Lama Yeshe Gyamtso

Name of the pdf is karmechagmeteaching.pdf
pages 10 - 19

It's about as detailed as several of Namkhai Norbu's instructions on other trainings I own. And detailed enough so that those pictures above actually make sense to me now.

One thing I thought was interesting was the six syllable mantra of The Great Perfection, which prevents rebirth in the six realms on page 13 which is similar but different from the one Namkhai Norbu uses. Close, but different. No HA, no SHA and two SAHs.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Sönam » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:15 pm

padma norbu wrote:I was referring to the PDF linked above, not the published book by Choki Nyima Rinpoche.

Front page reads:
The Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Venerable Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche
A Commentary On The Direct Instructions of The Great Compassionate One by Karma Chagmey Rinpoche
Translated from Tibetan by Lama Yeshe Gyamtso

Name of the pdf is karmechagmeteaching.pdf
pages 10 - 19

It's about as detailed as several of Namkhai Norbu's instructions on other trainings I own. And detailed enough so that those pictures above actually make sense to me now.

One thing I thought was interesting was the six syllable mantra of The Great Perfection, which prevents rebirth in the six realms on page 13 which is similar but different from the one Namkhai Norbu uses. Close, but different. No HA, no SHA and two SAHs.


I was also refering to Thrangu Rinpoché instructions ... I received them directely from Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoché. And Rinpoché only introduces them, like it can been seen from the Tibetan images, but he does not give detailled mudras (positions) instructions, and no details on black retreat and so on. But I agree it's something, not nothing.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Paul » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:18 pm

The book I'm on about is Naked Awareness: practical instructions on the union of mahamudra and dzogchen, by Karma Chagme & Gyatrul Rinpoche. It goes into more details than I remember, actually.
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Paul » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:57 pm

Namdrol wrote:Many years ago, in 1992, ChNN advised us not to look at thogal texts prior to receiving total instructions. So people in the DC should not read that or any other togal text just because they feel like it. They should wait until ChNN or some other qualified master can bestow the teaching on them in a proper way.

My point about availability is a little different, however. I feel the text classical texts should be available, since to a large extent they are self-secret. But this does not mean people should just go ahead and read them without having had the instruction from a qualified teacher. If they do, there is a good chance they will create obstacles for their practice. So people should be mature.

N


You've mentioned that there may be the possibility of obstacles - could you go into more details? I've heard this before, but no further explanation.

A possibly related comment about this kind of thing - I do regret that I read so much information about rigpa and dzogchen practice in general before having proper instruction. It is very, very easy to construct a fake rigpa to waste your time with. I think I did this for a few years at least. Being your own impediment is a pretty sad state of affairs...
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby deepbluehum » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:00 pm

Re: Lamps.

If you look at the various teachings discussed on this thread, you will read diverging explanations about the lamps. Lamps being rather fundamental to the theory of thodgal, one oneders why that is?
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Jnana » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:36 pm

Paul wrote:The book I'm on about is Naked Awareness: practical instructions on the union of mahamudra and dzogchen, by Karma Chagme & Gyatrul Rinpoche. It goes into more details than I remember, actually.

Yeah, the Atiyoga Chapter (pp. 171-89) from A Spacious Path to Freedom and the How to Follow the Path of the Leap-Over Chapter (pp. 153-78) from Naked Awareness taken in combination include all of the main elements of tögal practice.

Paul wrote:You've mentioned that there may be the possibility of obstacles - could you go into more details? I've heard this before, but no further explanation.

I'm obviously not Namdrol, and I'm interested to hear what he has to say on this point, but I've heard it said that if one hasn't created a proper basis for the practice then they may grow skeptical of this very radical teaching or they may lose interest in practicing it. Both would be obstacles.

Paul wrote:A possibly related comment about this kind of thing - I do regret that I read so much information about rigpa and dzogchen practice in general before having proper instruction. It is very, very easy to construct a fake rigpa to waste your time with. I think I did this for a few years at least. Being your own impediment is a pretty sad state of affairs...

I don't think tögal practice can be faked really; you either successfully induce the visions or you don't.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby deepbluehum » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:49 pm

I have often wondered about the themes of the Maha-suññata Sutta and the Upakkilesa Sutta whether these were the seeds of Trekcho and Thodgal respectively. The Buddha spoke about attending to internal and external emptiness, and also to the seeing lights and visions of beautiful forms. This thought occurs to me, Nothing new has been taught; nothing higher has been taught. We've been getting refresher courses on the original dispensation. It occurs to me, Four Jhanas, Four Stages of Arahat, Four Initiations, Four Visions. The Deity is directed thought of 1st Jhana; Bliss is rapture of 2nd Jhana; Wisdom is tranquility of 3rd Jhana and Word is the equanimity of the 4th Jhana, because the Buddha taught to combine Jhana to recognition of impermanence, emptiness and suffering and to relinquishment and nonattachment. After studying all of this for years and years, I can't tell you there is a precise fundamental difference in view, practice or result of any of the so-called "yanas." All differences lurk in the minds of practitioners who have such and such a view, practice and so-called different result. I look at suttas in the Atthakavagga of the Sutta Nipata, which may be the earliest recordings of the Buddha, where the Buddha tells brahmins about no view, not embracing or rejecting, and about nonperception. No teaching in the Nine Yanas really exceeds this first one in terms of profundity. Just some things to keep in mind before you buy that no return ticket to Nepal.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Paul » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:07 pm

deepbluehum wrote:I have often wondered about the themes of the Maha-suññata Sutta and the Upakkilesa Sutta whether these were the seeds of Trekcho and Thodgal respectively. The Buddha spoke about attending to internal and external emptiness, and also to the seeing lights and visions of beautiful forms. This thought occurs to me, Nothing new has been taught; nothing higher has been taught. We've been getting refresher courses on the original dispensation. It occurs to me, Four Jhanas, Four Stages of Arahat, Four Initiations, Four Visions. The Deity is directed thought of 1st Jhana; Bliss is rapture of 2nd Jhana; Wisdom is tranquility of 3rd Jhana and Word is the equanimity of the 4th Jhana, because the Buddha taught to combine Jhana to recognition of impermanence, emptiness and suffering and to relinquishment and nonattachment. After studying all of this for years and years, I can't tell you there is a precise fundamental difference in view, practice or result of any of the so-called "yanas." All differences lurk in the minds of practitioners who have such and such a view, practice and so-called different result. I look at suttas in the Atthakavagga of the Sutta Nipata, which may be the earliest recordings of the Buddha, where the Buddha tells brahmins about no view, not embracing or rejecting, and about nonperception. No teaching in the Nine Yanas really exceeds this first one in terms of profundity. Just some things to keep in mind before you buy that no return ticket to Nepal.


You might be interested in this text: Small Boat, Great Mountain

It's about Dzogchen teachings that were given to some Theravada students by Tsoknyi Rinpoche. There's some very interesting parallels drawn.

As far as Pali suttas go, I find the Bahiya Sutta very, very close to trekcho instructions.
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Sönam » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:07 pm

Jnana wrote:
Paul wrote:You've mentioned that there may be the possibility of obstacles - could you go into more details? I've heard this before, but no further explanation.

I'm obviously not Namdrol, and I'm interested to hear what he has to say on this point, but I've heard it said that if one hasn't created a proper basis for the practice then they may grow skeptical of this very radical teaching or they may lose interest in practicing it. Both would be obstacles.


There is also the fact than you can scr... your eyes if you do not know precisely how to look the sun rays, the position of the head and so on. Also the dark retreat can cause you mental problems if you're not ready for.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Jnana » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:16 pm

Sönam wrote:There is also the fact than you can scr... your eyes if you do not know precisely how to look the sun rays, the position of the head and so on. Also the dark retreat can cause you mental problems if you're not ready for.

Yes, indeed.
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