Triyik Yeshe Lama.

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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby heart » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:08 pm

pensum wrote:For Magnus and any others who are "pro" ngondro: how does doing ngondro improve or increase buddha nature? and conversely how is buddha nature negatively affected if one doesn't do any ngondro?


Hi M,

From a prayer of Dudjom Rinpoche;

"The primordial ground of one's own awareness is unchanging and unmoving.

Whatever arises, as the expression of the Dharmakaya, is neither good nor bad.

Since awareness of nowness is actually the Buddha,
The completely free serene Lama is revealed in one's innermost heart.
When this original mind is realized as the very nature of the Lama,
There is no need for whining contrived prayers (made with) grasping and attachment.
By letting go in the free natural flow of uncontrived awareness,
Not holding whatever arises, the blessings of self-liberation are obtained.

Through fabricated practice there is no time to achieve enlightenment.

This meditation produced through mental analysis and intellect is a deceiving enemy.

Now, conceptualization falls apart with the abandon of a madman.
Let this life be spent in a state of uninhibited naked ease!
Whatever one does, joyful; practitioner of the Great Perfection!"


But there is an other side of this issue that is very clearly expressed in Orgyen Tobgyals teaching http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Yidam

<snip>

"But nowadays there are people who say, “Oh, what a lot of bother! Deities and mantra, I hate all that. I’m just going to meditate.” And they sit there, and close their eyes, and that’s what they call practice. They say, “I just want to do effortless meditation.” But as Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche said, “Although there are people like that, I’ve not seen them gaining any sign of attainment.” "

<snip>

"On one occasion, I asked Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, “Is it necessary for someone with realization to recite prayers and mantras?” And he replied, “Someone who has that kind of realisation is like space. What harm could recitation possibly do to space?” And he continued, “To recite even a single mani mantra, or to recite the Vajra Guru mantra a few times, is only going to help. It’s not going to hurt, is it?” "

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Sönam » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:18 pm

pensum wrote:
Sönam wrote:
pensum wrote:And for all those who are "con" ngondro: how is buddha nature diminished or degraded by doing ngondro? and how does not doing any ngondro improve or augment buddha nature?


Buddha nature is certainly not impacted by ngondro ... therefore why to practice ngondro?

Sönam


but if that is the case then why not? does receiving teachings or studying with Namkhai Norbu or any master affect buddha nature in any way? what about earning a living, making money, eating, sex, etc. etc.? why do you do any of these?

...

so does doing ngondro harm buddha nature in some way that would make you warn others not to or discourage people from doing it if they desire to?


why not ... I agree, and never pretend it's a bad thing to do so, (also I may think there is a more direct way taught). But most of the time it happens the other way, when you say "no ngondro", "others" say that's not the way, ngondro is "a must", you "can't do without".
I even recently had (again) a discussion, on a french site, with someone known here (Magnus may know who I am speaking about) pretending that ChNN was wrong and that other masters were also saying he was wrong.

But in fact, that discussion is somehow a non sense, because who has a teacher that say "do practice ngondro" and you do, is simply a fact! and it does correspond to one's karma and reality. And otherwise is valid too.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby arsent » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:21 pm

Buddha Sakyamuni famously said that if one could remain in the state of wakefulness for the time that it takes an ant to walk from the tip to the bridge of ones nose, it would be worth more than a lifetime of good deeds.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:02 pm

I also think we don't need to polarize things to a point of there being a pro ngöndro group vs a anti ngöndro group! :lol:
I think some teachers emphasize the traditional tantric approach to Dzogchen while others don't. I never seen a teacher denigrating any form of Vajrayana practice.
In the DC, people also practice tantra according to their own needs. Perhaps the right way to say is that we don't have a one-fits-all formula, a template if you wish, that everyone must follow, not mattering his personal circumstances. Each student must observe his situation, what he needs and lacks and so on and so forth and then adequate the practice to his own life in a realistic and workable fashion. When doubt arises, one clarifies it with the lama, senior instructors and so on, depending on the case. There are so many different practices one can help oneself that in fact it is a matter of choosing what is best for each case. The methods available are so vast that I feel we aren't in lack of anything, even ngöndro, that a student can perfectly decide to perform if such is his will; it just won't be forced upon him as a prerequisite to other methods. It's really simple and I never understood why there's so much fuss about it.

I completed ngöndro and still don't think it should be absolutely mandatory for everyone. Some people I know very well practice(ed) ngöndro with the purpose of getting done with it to move along. Some even admit such in private. They didn't start like that, but in the end they just want to finish it. Their fault? Perhaps, but not everyone has access to good teachings or teachers. So slowly they go from enthusiasm to the point when they slowly slip into performing it quite mechanically, bored and without having their heart in it, even when up to a 1/3rd they were apparently doing fine. But as it is a prerequisite and they have no time to do it under retreat conditions, they never really connect deeply with the practice or really experience any stable or consistent progress.

Their mind is untamed, without meditative stabilization, and instead of stabilizing it through correct practice they work out the prostrations, trout the poorly understood sadhana, do the respective visualizations imperfectly, perform mudras and offerings without really engaging the spirit of the practice and end up quitting or taking over 20 years to finish. The freaking ngöndro, more than 20 years, and not because they are doing it again! This shows lack of commitment or connection to the practice. It doesn't take a genius to see something is wrong about it. Meanwhile, their mind remains as untamed as it was when they started. It's not ngöndro's fault. They just have a shity life which doesn't allow them to practice properly and sometimes they don't even know it. So they "work out", sing mysterious tibetan phrases again and again, do funny gestures and small rituals that they don't understand very well and that's pretty much the whole story. Of course some will say that they "feel" like this and like that in quite a new agish manner, but there are no signs to be seen, as expected. Mind untamed, emotions untamed, behavior untamed. This leads nowhere, as you guys know. So their mind remains untamed. If they engage in Yidam practice with that attitude, and some do, it will be the same old with the same results. I STRESS that it shouldn't be like this. This is not how one should practice when doing the preliminaries, let alone creation/completion stages. Still, it happens much more than most of us would like to admit. Had they spent all that time just practicing shamatha and simply focusing on the breath and then the inner signs along with vipashyana and they would have progressed much further in terms of taming their mind.

This doesn't address the necessity or lack of it of the tantric approach to Dzogchen. It addresses some of the different practitioners I've found during these years that struggled during many years poorly performing this or that practice simply because it was mandatory. Some of them are no longer Buddhists. They left thinking this was all wishful thinking, because after so many years of practice they were basically as afflicted and ignorant as before. What they don't realize is that probably they never performed a single session of ngöndro properly done, but this is not their fault. Of course my experience is very limited and I also know people who seem quite achieved following the traditional route.
Anyway, it's not because of the above that I don't think ngöndro is fundamental, but I've went about it before so I won't go into it again. :smile:
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Jnana » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:29 pm

:good:

Well said Dechen.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby heart » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:45 am

Sönam wrote:why not ... I agree, and never pretend it's a bad thing to do so, (also I may think there is a more direct way taught). But most of the time it happens the other way, when you say "no ngondro", "others" say that's not the way, ngondro is "a must", you "can't do without".
I even recently had (again) a discussion, on a french site, with someone known here (Magnus may know who I am speaking about) pretending that ChNN was wrong and that other masters were also saying he was wrong.

But in fact, that discussion is somehow a non sense, because who has a teacher that say "do practice ngondro" and you do, is simply a fact! and it does correspond to one's karma and reality. And otherwise is valid too.

Sönam


So you been fighting with Jean-Luc again. :smile:

Anyway, when the teacher say "do practice Ngondro" you actually have a few choices, might depend on your teacher of course. If you follow the instructions of for example Jigme Lingpa for the LN Ngondro he say that you should when you done as many prostrations or Vajrasattva as you can to dissolve the visualization and "rest in the natural state". If this is taken seriously you might for example split your sessions between Ngondro visualizations and Trechö. Same thing is of course possible for most Nyingma Yidams. Ultimately, as an understanding of Trechö evolves, there might not be the necessity to split the session in to two pats. If you practice Ngondro like this it might take a pretty long time to complete but it might be a better way. The competitive way to do Ngondro, the way I did myself, might also have some benefits but I think it often end up in the way Dechen suggests above.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby pemachophel » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:41 pm

Magnus,

You can also do threk-cho while doing ngon-dro or any other practice. The movement of the mind is the same no matter what the content of the thoughts.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby heart » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:55 pm

pemachophel wrote:Magnus,

You can also do threk-cho while doing ngon-dro or any other practice. The movement of the mind is the same no matter what the content of the thoughts.


Yes, I actually mention that above.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Paul » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:05 pm

heart wrote:
pemachophel wrote:Magnus,

You can also do threk-cho while doing ngon-dro or any other practice. The movement of the mind is the same no matter what the content of the thoughts.


Yes, I actually mention that above.

/magnus


Personally, I think that doing trekcho as often as possible in as many situations as possible is indispensable and very, very beneficial. From Namdrol-la's Ati blog:

Practicing without interruption is the supreme upadesha.

-- The Tantra of the Intimate Instructions On the Signs of Wisdom

I don't know how other people have found it, but in my experience my two main teachers Tsoknyi Rinpoche and Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche give the pointing out & trekcho instructions far more openly than they do the ngondro instructions.
Image

"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Sönam » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:56 am

I was just reading that ChNN's point of view regarding tantra (extracted from Dzogchen Teachings) ... it can help to clarifies some points.

Training in pure vision is the samaya, or commitment, of the Tantric teachings.
That is good also for Dzogchen practitioners. For example, if you see your Vajra brothers and sisters as enlightened beings, as if they were your teachers, you will never have problems with them. On the other hand, if you always think they are the ones who are creating difficulties, you will always have problems. Thus, it is very useful to train a little in pure vision according to the Tantric system. This is why we also need this knowledge and understanding.
Of course, the methods of the various levels of the path are different. In tantra we use transformation methods, whereas in Dzogchen the method used is that of self-liberation. If you understand how Tantric methods work, then, when you learn the method of self-liberation as it is practiced in Dzogchen, you can better understand what the difference is between them.
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby heart » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:00 pm

Sönam wrote:I was just reading that ChNN's point of view regarding tantra (extracted from Dzogchen Teachings) ... it can help to clarifies some points.

Training in pure vision is the samaya, or commitment, of the Tantric teachings.
That is good also for Dzogchen practitioners. For example, if you see your Vajra brothers and sisters as enlightened beings, as if they were your teachers, you will never have problems with them. On the other hand, if you always think they are the ones who are creating difficulties, you will always have problems. Thus, it is very useful to train a little in pure vision according to the Tantric system. This is why we also need this knowledge and understanding.
Of course, the methods of the various levels of the path are different. In tantra we use transformation methods, whereas in Dzogchen the method used is that of self-liberation. If you understand how Tantric methods work, then, when you learn the method of self-liberation as it is practiced in Dzogchen, you can better understand what the difference is between them.


See, this I just don't get. Pure perception, they way I learned it, is not imagining that the world and beings are something good and pure, rather it is acknowledging the world just as it is. It is about relaxing and not about some high level fantasy. It hit right at the view if you know Dzogchen.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby gad rgyangs » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:09 pm

heart wrote:
See, this I just don't get. Pure perception, they way I learned it, is not imagining that the world and beings are something good and pure, rather it is acknowledging the world just as it is. It is about relaxing and not about some high level fantasy. It hit right at the view if you know Dzogchen.

/magnus


"The world just as it is" is emptiness, thats all. Yet, manifestation is unceasing. Surely you don't think that manifestation has a "just as it is"-ness (unless you mean the five lights, but thats not how we worldlings perceive, now is it?).
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:13 pm

heart wrote:
Sönam wrote:I was just reading that ChNN's point of view regarding tantra (extracted from Dzogchen Teachings) ... it can help to clarifies some points.

Training in pure vision is the samaya, or commitment, of the Tantric teachings.
That is good also for Dzogchen practitioners. For example, if you see your Vajra brothers and sisters as enlightened beings, as if they were your teachers, you will never have problems with them. On the other hand, if you always think they are the ones who are creating difficulties, you will always have problems. Thus, it is very useful to train a little in pure vision according to the Tantric system. This is why we also need this knowledge and understanding.
Of course, the methods of the various levels of the path are different. In tantra we use transformation methods, whereas in Dzogchen the method used is that of self-liberation. If you understand how Tantric methods work, then, when you learn the method of self-liberation as it is practiced in Dzogchen, you can better understand what the difference is between them.


See, this I just don't get. Pure perception, they way I learned it, is not imagining that the world and beings are something good and pure, rather it is acknowledging the world just as it is. It is about relaxing and not about some high level fantasy. It hit right at the view if you know Dzogchen.

/magnus


Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Virgo » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:24 pm

    "There is no need for whining contrived prayers (made with) grasping and attachment.
    By letting go in the free natural flow of uncontrived awareness,
    Not holding whatever arises, the blessings of self-liberation are obtained.

    Through fabricated practice there is no time to achieve enlightenment.

    This meditation produced through mental analysis and intellect is a deceiving enemy.

    Now, conceptualization falls apart with the abandon of a madman.
    Let this life be spent in a state of uninhibited naked ease!
    Whatever one does, joyful; practitioner of the Great Perfection!"


This is probably my favorite section of Buddhist prayer.

These words are the heart advice of some of my Gurus-- Khenpo Tsweang Dongyal Rinpoche and Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche. They told me to say this every day, as it is included in a practice text they gave to me.


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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Virgo » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:36 pm

pensum wrote:For Magnus and any others who are "pro" ngondro: how does doing ngondro improve or increase buddha nature? and conversely how is buddha nature negatively affected if one doesn't do any ngondro?

And for all those who are "con" ngondro: how is buddha nature diminished or degraded by doing ngondro? and how does not doing any ngondro improve or augment buddha nature?

The unique teachings of Dzogchen! Ngodnro, no ngondro, the natural condition is the same. No need to push or pull anything. However, ngondro is a highly powerful tantric practice. Accumulating vast swarms of merit, and purifying obscurations and heaps of negative karma helps the practitioner on the conventional level. For example, we are produced by our merit! If one does not attain everything in this life, one must be reborn. Creating merit through mandala offerings, prostrations, Guru Yoga and so forth, can form the right conditions that you will meet the teachings early on and have the right practice conditions in your next life. By the same token, if you really have understanding, simply practicing trechgo creates a great deal of merit and understanding. All these things are useful. We should see reality as dynamic, and use whatever tools we feel necessary to complete this path swiftly. Sentient mother beings cannot suffer for another day, with knowledge that it does not alter the natural state.

Likewise, through transformation and so forth, one can actualize the bhumis. This is non-contradictory and only helps, not hinders, ones Dzogchen practice.
Accepting and rejecting accumulation of merit and wisdom, purification, and so on (anti-ngondro) is accepting and rejecting! Let it all rest in the natural condition.


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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:50 pm

Virgo wrote:...simply practicing trechgo creates a great deal of merit and understanding.



more merit, actually.

But please recall, merit really refers to what kind of body you will get as a result.

N
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:54 pm

pensum wrote:
For Magnus and any others who are "pro" ngondro: how does doing ngondro improve or increase buddha nature? and conversely how is buddha nature negatively affected if one doesn't do any ngondro?

And for all those who are "con" ngondro: how is buddha nature diminished or degraded by doing ngondro? and how does not doing any ngondro improve or augment buddha nature?


It is basically a question of time. Since time is limited, it is better to strive for the essence of the teachings from the beginning. It is better to select teachings which rapidly lead to personal experience. All teachings are good, but some are more effective.

So, the main message is don't waste time.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Virgo » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:58 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Virgo wrote:...simply practicing trechgo creates a great deal of merit and understanding.



more merit, actually.

But please recall, merit really refers to what kind of body you will get as a result.

N

Thank you Loppon. As always, I spoke hastily. Better if I never wrote anything. :D

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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby pensum » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:35 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
See, this I just don't get. Pure perception, they way I learned it, is not imagining that the world and beings are something good and pure, rather it is acknowledging the world just as it is. It is about relaxing and not about some high level fantasy. It hit right at the view if you know Dzogchen.

/magnus


Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N


"Furthermore, if you believe in the way ordinary people see objects, you stray into materialistic ordinariness.
If you regard them one-sidedly as either existent or nonexistent, you stray into the eternalism or nihilism of heretical extremists.
If you believe that objects exist separate from mind, you into being a shravaka or pratyekabuddha.
If you claim that perceptions are mind, you stray into being a Mind Only follower.
If you believe that the world and beings are deities, you stray into Mantra.
What is the use of meditation practice without knowing how to cut through these strayings!"

Padmasambhava
(my emphasis)
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Re: Triyik Yeshe Lama.

Postby Malcolm » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:48 pm

pensum wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
See, this I just don't get. Pure perception, they way I learned it, is not imagining that the world and beings are something good and pure, rather it is acknowledging the world just as it is. It is about relaxing and not about some high level fantasy. It hit right at the view if you know Dzogchen.

/magnus


Tantric generation stage is exactly imagining that all beings and the world are the mandala. It is an exercise in creative imagination. If you think, if you really think that where you are is pure and everyone you meet is a buddha deity, then you cannot possibly have any problems.

N


"Furthermore, if you believe in the way ordinary people see objects, you stray into materialistic ordinariness.
If you regard them one-sidedly as either existent or nonexistent, you stray into the eternalism or nihilism of heretical extremists.
If you believe that objects exist separate from mind, you into being a shravaka or pratyekabuddha.
If you claim that perceptions are mind, you stray into being a Mind Only follower.
If you believe that the world and beings are deities, you stray into Mantra.
What is the use of meditation practice without knowing how to cut through these strayings!"

Padmasambhava
(my emphasis)


This is appropriate for someone who has stabilized thier practice of Dzogchen. However, one cannot stray into Mantra if one has no concrete knowledge of Dzogchen, correct? I think ChNN's point is that it is far better to stray into mantra if you have a tendency to demonize your vajra brothers and sisters.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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