Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:33 am

What about Rushen and/or Trekchö practice?

Which books of unrestricted availablity, besides Heart Drops of Dharmakaya, have complete Rushen instructions?

Well, actually, the English translation of Heart Drops of Dharmakaya is missing the Rushen practice of purifying the Six Lokas which I believe is related to Longsal.

And is the Guru Yoga practice found within Vajranatha's (John Myrdhin Reynolds) book Oral Tradition From Zhang-Zhung a complete Guru Yoga practice?

Maybe it is possible to jump right in to Thögal practice right away as to achieve Liberation that way, I don't know.

Although it seems to me that if we were to practice Dzogchen on our own, that we should most definitely work first with the, what seem to me to be, Dzogchen prerequisites, i.e. Guru Yoga, Ganachakra Puja or Ganapuja (or at least the Gnostic Communion/Eucharist or the Pancatattva Ritual of Hindu Tantra), Rushen (and/or Semdzin), and Trekchö; before even attempting Thögal.

Is the Bönpo Rushen, and its Mantra, which is the practice of the Six Lokas (related to Longsal?) that is mentioned, but not described, in Heart Drops of Dharmakaya; found within Vajranatha's Oral Tradition From Zhang-Zhung?

Anyway, I should probably repost this post in the Bönpo sub-forum. Just wanted to add more context to this thread in regard to Dzogchen "Self-Initiation".


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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Dechen Norbu » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:16 am

Don't you have a teacher to ask these questions? No teacher, no Dzogchen. :shrug:
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby muni » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:48 am

The many many available teachings ABOUT are all what one needs to keep swallowed in pool of delusion-perfect ideas or to turn back dreaming and maybe then lacking master to take us out. We can read a million of recipes how to make a bread and at the end dying of starvation.

No genuine love, no genuine joy, no peace is in intellectual understanding. Dechen Norbu, thank you for your wise words.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Inge » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:55 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:Don't you have a teacher to ask these questions? No teacher, no Dzogchen. :shrug:

I try to follow the teachings of ChNN, but he is not available for me to ask questions at the moment.

Sometimes in the teachings I have listened to he briefly explains some aspects of thogal, but I am unsure if this is sufficient for me to actually do this practice.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:11 am

Inge wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Don't you have a teacher to ask these questions? No teacher, no Dzogchen. :shrug:

I try to follow the teachings of ChNN, but he is not available for me to ask questions at the moment.

Sometimes in the teachings I have listened to he briefly explains some aspects of thogal, but I am unsure if this is sufficient for me to actually do this practice.


One must have removed all doubts about one's rigpa and have stability in trekchod before togal is even applicable. Otherwise, even if one were to learn the postures and gazes and so on, and even if one did begin to see something, one would be powerless to keep from intellectualizing and subtly grasping to one's perceptions - this is said in the Dzogchen practice manuals (triyik) to create a profound hindrance to fully realizing Dzogchen.

Much better (in my opinion, and according to the triyik's I've received transmission for, teachings from, and which I've read) is to thoroughly practice the khorde rushen practices (separating samsara and nirvana) within the context of guru yoga for as long as the texts/traditions/your guru prescribe, and then follow that with speaking with your lama (some way, somehow, if not in person) and explain what you think rigpa means...

Once your lama confirms you're hitting the mark, you can focus on gaining proficiency and stability in trekchod. Once you feel like you've got that, then speak to your lama again and see if you're ready for togal. Once you are, then practice togal as diligently as you can and realize Buddhahood in this lifetime.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:17 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Well, actually, the English translation of Heart Drops of Dharmakaya is missing the Rushen practice of purifying the Six Lokas which I believe is related to Longsal.



Purifying the seeds of the six lokas is part of all Buddhist khorde rushen practices, not just Namkhai Norbu's Longsal. Instructions for this practice differ in minor ways in the various systems, but it's almost always basically the same thing essentially. I believe one of Norbu Rinpoche's versions of this practice, however, is unique in that it combines Vajrasattva practice with the purification of the six lokas. On the other hand, I've received pith instructions from one of my other lamas on how to combine purification of the seeds of the six lokas with various Yidams in a very similar way.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:29 pm

After this thread, I did a bit of Googling and found lots of info on thogal. I haven't read it yet and probably won't for a very long time until I get a very good e-reader since most of the PDFs are several hundred or over 1000 pages. Clearly, this is not all thogal information, but I would think since they are commentaries on tantras which involve thogal the full context is important to read.

I did read a very brief overview of what it is all about and, uh... well, it reminds me of a fixation I had in college with trying to understand what the "space" in between the object seen and the eye was. It seemed to me that the stuff in between was really the connection mechanism or the most important part, that it was actually the consciousness itself somehow. I can't really explain it because I just remembered this was a very big deal to me at the time and I thought if I could figure it out, I would have understood everything. But, I could never figure it out, even after trying very hard for several years and I finally stopped thinking about it.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:31 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:
Well, actually, the English translation of Heart Drops of Dharmakaya is missing the Rushen practice of purifying the Six Lokas which I believe is related to Longsal.



Purifying the seeds of the six lokas is part of all Buddhist khorde rushen practices, not just Namkhai Norbu's Longsal. Instructions for this practice differ in minor ways in the various systems, but it's almost always basically the same thing essentially. I believe one of Norbu Rinpoche's versions of this practice, however, is unique in that it combines Vajrasattva practice with the purification of the six lokas. On the other hand, I've received pith instructions from one of my other lamas on how to combine purification of the seeds of the six lokas with various Yidams in a very similar way.



And you really just purify them by visualizing and verbalizing syllables, huh? So strange. Purification of the Six Lokas is something I've picked up a couple times and then stopped because it is so abstract it seems almost like something on Tibetan Sesame Street. Visualizing letters and pronouncing them. Why? How does it work? Eh? Wha? Huh?
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:44 pm

PN - why would you want to do this? What's motivating you?
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:12 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:PN - why would you want to do this? What's motivating you?



None of your business! Also: why not? Who cares? Curiosity, etc. Namdrol said the material is out there for anyone who wants to read it and I want to read it. I think a more pertinent question is why WOULDN'T anyone want to read about thogal? You want to die without knowing about thogal? Okay, your choice...

Btw, I just found our favorite website again while Googling thogal:

http://www.buddhabrats.com/glossary/thogal

:smile:
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Clarence » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:31 pm

Why are you so rude to people who are willing to answer your questions even though you shoot down almost every answer you get?
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:49 pm

Clarence wrote:Why are you so rude to people who are willing to answer your questions even though you shoot down almost every answer you get?


This wasn't rude and I don't shoot down almost every answer I get.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Clarence » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:55 pm

padma norbu wrote:This wasn't rude and I don't shoot down almost every answer I get.


I guess we have different perceptions of your internet behavior then. You do generate interesting discussions though.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:59 pm

Clarence wrote:
padma norbu wrote:This wasn't rude and I don't shoot down almost every answer I get.


I guess we have different perceptions of your internet behavior then. You do generate interesting discussions though.


Yeah, I guess we do... I just like to get to the bottom of things. To you it may seem like "shooting down," but I'd like to see examples of this, if you can provide them. This here was just a joke response. I had PadmaVonSamba asking my motivation on my "lazy people should just give up, right?" thread (a bit of a troll in the title there, obviously) and I really didn't feel like focusing on what possible reasons I might have for wanting to read about thogal just because I happened to mention it. I don't think it's strange that someone would want to know what this thing people keep talking about is. Whatever it is, I have missed from the books everyone else read.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:14 pm

padma norbu wrote:None of your business!

It's your teacher's business, what does he say about it?
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:20 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
padma norbu wrote:None of your business!

It's your teacher's business, what does he say about it?


He says it's none of your business, too.

BTW, I didn't start this thread.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Josef » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:40 pm

padma norbu wrote:

And you really just purify them by visualizing and verbalizing syllables, huh? So strange. Purification of the Six Lokas is something I've picked up a couple times and then stopped because it is so abstract it seems almost like something on Tibetan Sesame Street. Visualizing letters and pronouncing them. Why? How does it work? Eh? Wha? Huh?

Its a bit more sophisticated than that really.
Its a pretty profound purification method, probably the most profound other than thogal itself.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Josef » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:43 pm

padma norbu wrote: I don't think it's strange that someone would want to know what this thing people keep talking about is. Whatever it is, I have missed from the books everyone else read.

If you dont read Tibetan there is actually very little on it available.
People can read what is out there and think "oh, i know what this is now", but they are really just fooling themselves.
In my experience the things you read about thogal before having it taught to you directly are pretty useless.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby Josef » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:45 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Btw, I just found our favorite website again while Googling thogal:

http://www.buddhabrats.com/glossary/thogal

:smile:

Thats a really shitty definition.
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:50 pm

Nangwa wrote:
padma norbu wrote:

And you really just purify them by visualizing and verbalizing syllables, huh? So strange. Purification of the Six Lokas is something I've picked up a couple times and then stopped because it is so abstract it seems almost like something on Tibetan Sesame Street. Visualizing letters and pronouncing them. Why? How does it work? Eh? Wha? Huh?

Its a bit more sophisticated than that really.
Its a pretty profound purification method, probably the most profound other than thogal itself.


That's the gist of what I see in my booklet. I was being succinct so as to not actually give away the practice. Many of the "dzogchen practices" are like this, in Bon tradition, too.
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