Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:12 am

Hey! Don't get too excited people, my reality might change back again in the next few days! :tongue:

Still, glad to be a source of joy for all!
:namaste:
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:07 pm

Virgo wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Did you ever read much of his work or actually work his system? I've often thought about the very obvious Vajrayana influence on his work and wonder exactly where it came from. That wasn't the kind of Buddhism he studied. Some of the stuff he came up with reminds me of Dzogchen, too. There are a few people out there trying to promote a sort of fusion of his work and Vajrayana (e.g. Sam Webster), but it doesn't seem proper to me. I've often thought about why, too, since Buddhism is all about love, acceptance and integrating. It takes the shape of whatever culture it's in. But, I don't know, it doesn't really make sense to me to use Egyptian gods for Buddhist practice. Or, I guess it might be more accurate to say that he uses Buddhist practice to worship Egyptian gods. It's clear he has a Buddhist understanding and he applies that to Thelema for some reason. Not entirely sure why.

Why? Because different beings have different defilements. :smile:

That is to say, he was under the sway of his defilements.

Kevin


I'm not sure if you are referring to Crowley or Webster here, but the past tense of was makes me think you are talking about Crowley. Webster is still alive. He recently put out a book called Tantric Thelema. The melding of Vajrayana and Thelema is a fairly recent phenomenon. Crowley rejected Buddhism.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:41 am

Interesting... wish I read this a few months ago:
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?o ... 5&Itemid=0

3rd Paragraph: "A conflict may emerge for those of us who pay bills and have children and have an ordinary, beautiful life. We feel creative and self-motivated within our ordinary life. We also know the value of formal practice, yet that sometimes conflicts with family or job responsibilities. On top of that, we don't even know if we are making progress in our practice, because we feel we are not doing it enough. Many times, with the pressures of daily life, we find ourselves saying "Oh, I didn't do any formal practice at all last week. I am a bad practitioner. I committed to do this, and now I just dropped everything." We feel bad about ourselves and our path."

Anyway, been feeling better about everything again since I just started doing practice and not worrying about progress or if I'm doing them right. I was doing a mala of Tara's jetzun prayer and mantra on the couch the other day (muted the tv and just did it for 15 minutes while my wife was in the other room silently in my head and barely whispering sometimes without full formal sadhana) when the idea popped in my head "is this even good practice?" because it felt so comfortable and lazy... then I immediately thought of old ladies and nuns saying their rosaries just whenever and wherever the mood struck them. Superstitiously, perhaps, but very naturally and with a proper intention; I think, the only thing that would make it "bad" practice is doubt or wrong motivation. Also, I've been noticing this attitude that seems quite helpful lately: when frustration arises, I don't say "screw it" to life or to the practice, but "screw it" to the frustration. I've certainly read about this before ('the wisdom of no escape,' etc.), but I guess maybe I learn different things as I go through these same cycles again and again. No point in trying to run away from the pain and if you surrender to it and accept that this is how samsara is, it doesn't seem to hurt so much while simultaneously giving motivation to practice. I guess I'm getting better at it in very slow motion.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby dakini_boi » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:11 am

:twothumbsup: :applause: :jumping:

especially:
padma norbu wrote:Anyway, been feeling better about everything again since I just started doing practice and not worrying about progress or if I'm doing them right. . . when frustration arises, I don't say "screw it" to life or to the practice, but "screw it" to the frustration. . .No point in trying to run away from the pain and if you surrender to it and accept that this is how samsara is, it doesn't seem to hurt so much while simultaneously giving motivation to practice. I guess I'm getting better at it in very slow motion.


Your progress doesn't seem that slow to me.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:58 am

padma norbu wrote: It's clear he has a Buddhist understanding and he applies that to Thelema for some reason. Not entirely sure why.


Rebranding.
http://www.atikosha.org
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:08 am

padma norbu wrote:Crowley rejected Buddhism.


Not really. He considered it to be a "Yellow" school, outside of western teleologies and so therefore, something to draw from, but irrelevant to his overt rebellion against Christianity.

Nothing in Buddhism to rebel against.

N
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:09 am

dakini_boi wrote::twothumbsup: :applause: :jumping:

especially:
padma norbu wrote:Anyway, been feeling better about everything again since I just started doing practice and not worrying about progress or if I'm doing them right. . . when frustration arises, I don't say "screw it" to life or to the practice, but "screw it" to the frustration. . .No point in trying to run away from the pain and if you surrender to it and accept that this is how samsara is, it doesn't seem to hurt so much while simultaneously giving motivation to practice. I guess I'm getting better at it in very slow motion.


Your progress doesn't seem that slow to me.


I don't know, man... I started dipping my toes in the water way back in the 90s! Seems pretty damn slow to me. But, maybe I just had to outgrow some things. 20s and early 30s seems like pretty difficult times for an American boy to really feel fed up with all samsara has to offer.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:19 am

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Crowley rejected Buddhism.


Not really. He considered it to be a "Yellow" school, outside of western teleologies and so therefore, something to draw from, but irrelevant to his overt rebellion against Christianity.

Nothing in Buddhism to rebel against.

N


Interesting. My understanding is that he took what he could from it when he studied with Bennett and then decided it was ultimately wrong and Liber Al was ultimately right. He kept parts of it, but ultimately rejected the whole of what he understood of it; that is my impression. Here's a good analysis for anyone who might be interested: http://www.ashe-prem.org/five/jellyfish.shtml
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:33 pm

padma norbu wrote:Interesting. My understanding is that he took what he could from it when he studied with Bennett and then decided it was ultimately wrong and Liber Al was ultimately right. He kept parts of it, but ultimately rejected the whole of what he understood of it; that is my impression. Here's a good analysis for anyone who might be interested: http://www.ashe-prem.org/five/jellyfish.shtml


Now that was a very interesting little read.

PN no I was never into Crowley's system I delved into other areas.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby dakini_boi » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:03 pm

padma norbu wrote:I don't know, man... I started dipping my toes in the water way back in the 90s! Seems pretty damn slow to me. But, maybe I just had to outgrow some things. 20s and early 30s seems like pretty difficult times for an American boy to really feel fed up with all samsara has to offer.


Well I meant progress since you first started this topic. I think serious dharma practice - especially in Tantra - requires us to develop a "do or die" attitude where no matter what frustrations or obstacles come up, we're willing to do whatever it takes. Vajra hell is just when we give up trying ("give up" in a dualistic way, not in a dzogchen way :smile: ). Anyway, most of all I'm glad your mood seems to have gotten way lighter since beginning this topic. I hope it sticks, and whatever you learned, you remember.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:34 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
padma norbu wrote:I don't know, man... I started dipping my toes in the water way back in the 90s! Seems pretty damn slow to me. But, maybe I just had to outgrow some things. 20s and early 30s seems like pretty difficult times for an American boy to really feel fed up with all samsara has to offer.


Well I meant progress since you first started this topic. I think serious dharma practice - especially in Tantra - requires us to develop a "do or die" attitude where no matter what frustrations or obstacles come up, we're willing to do whatever it takes. Vajra hell is just when we give up trying ("give up" in a dualistic way, not in a dzogchen way :smile: ). Anyway, most of all I'm glad your mood seems to have gotten way lighter since beginning this topic. I hope it sticks, and whatever you learned, you remember.


Yeah, well I figured it would end up like this. I was just trying to express my frustration very clearly. It was how I had been feeling for quite a while and needed to talk honestly about it to get good feedback and get through it. I was never really planning to "give up." Your input was very helpful, btw, so thank you very much. Lama Yeshe's Tantra book is indeed fantastic.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Thug4lyfe » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:47 pm

Maybe you should give punkism and rest, which will give your mind less distraction and free up some time for your buddhist practices?
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:52 pm

Food_Eatah wrote:Maybe you should give punkism and rest, which will give your mind less distraction and free up some time for your buddhist practices?


Maybe you should stop projecting your fantasies onto me, eh? You seem to like doing that and then disappearing once you're corrected. I was taking the "hippy" side of that particular debate, btw. And, as I mentioned, I couldn't care less about music these days. But, you probably didn't notice when I agreed with you about music being kind of like a form of cocaine.

padma norbu wrote:I just think it's kinda fun and funny that we are "arguing" about music here. I hope everyone is joking because I know I am. :smile:

These days I agree with miss fuddy duddy up there, the Food Eatah, about music. It could be another kind of cocaine... if I wasn't already pretty much over it. Music is mildly entertaining to me these days at best. I certainly won't pay to watch 4 guys act like doofuses on a stage.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby dakini_boi » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:02 am

padma norbu wrote:Yeah, well I figured it would end up like this. I was just trying to express my frustration very clearly. It was how I had been feeling for quite a while and needed to talk honestly about it to get good feedback and get through it. I was never really planning to "give up." Your input was very helpful, btw, so thank you very much. Lama Yeshe's Tantra book is indeed fantastic.

:thumbsup: i knew you wouldn't give up.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby adamas » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:15 am

padma norbu wrote:I've come to realize that I'm quite lazy about Dzogchen practice. I don't really think there's anything I can do about it. In fact, I'm quite lazy with ANY practice I've ever discovered in relation to Buddhism. This has been going on for over a decade now and I have concluded that I will never be able to change.
Time to give up?

Really just plain sick of practices that take forever to achieve results. Completion of Tara practice is only a million mantras! No problem! Give me a break. Kabballist path-working was almost instantaneous in comparison, sorry to say.


Give up the disease of effort, 7th dalai lama
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:51 am

^
It is funny because that's finally what I've done. Maybe it's just me but it took quite a while to understand that from the point of view I currently have. It seems strange to put minutes or hours per day into practice and think it is not effort—because it obviously is—but, I don't know, seems more effortless now. I just had to perservere through a few bouts of frustration. Usually, I have thought my practice is no good if I'm feeling bad and so I stop and try to inspire myself or give myself a break or whatever. This last time, I just used practice as a focal point almost rather blankly without any expectation about it and sort of without effort because it seems like my effort was in resisting, so I just let a different part of me that was more about giving up take over; I gave up resisting and just practiced.

I don't think "give up the disease of effort" can really make sense unless you go through something like that.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:07 pm

So, this Tantra book by Lama Yeshe is quite something. I've recently been reading a lot of great books in rapid-fire succession that are all amazing clear, but this one really covered a lot of territory in very simple terms. Now I actually understand what a mandala is after reading about 2 sentences in this book. Similarly, a fine point was put on inner and outer guru in a simple way and, conveniently, was related to the bit about a deity's mandala. I have read very lengthy explanations about the yidam before and was in fact just trying to analyze it with Namdrol's help a few weeks back. I thought I had a pretty good handle on it back then, but one paragraph in this book clarified it perfectly. What other books are this simple and easy to understand? I'm not entirely sure I need much more after this, but I like to read.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby dakini_boi » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:17 pm

Haha, awesome, actually now you're inspiring me to read it again. Going on a plane in a couple hours, maybe I'll take it along.

padma norbu wrote:^
It is funny because that's finally what I've done. Maybe it's just me but it took quite a while to understand that from the point of view I currently have. It seems strange to put minutes or hours per day into practice and think it is not effort—because it obviously is—but, I don't know, seems more effortless now. I just had to perservere through a few bouts of frustration. Usually, I have thought my practice is no good if I'm feeling bad and so I stop and try to inspire myself or give myself a break or whatever. This last time, I just used practice as a focal point almost rather blankly without any expectation about it and sort of without effort because it seems like my effort was in resisting, so I just let a different part of me that was more about giving up take over; I gave up resisting and just practiced.

I don't think "give up the disease of effort" can really make sense unless you go through something like that.

:thumbsup: YES, very well-put. That's the difference between "giving up" as a manifestation of laziness and "giving up" as a manifestation of renunciation. you renounce putting energy into the process of samsara. Then you're free to just practice. The fact of the matter is, if frustrations come up in practice - it's something you're going to have to deal with anyway, whether in practice or out. :namaste:
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby mint » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:24 pm

dakini_boi wrote: :thumbsup: YES, very well-put. That's the difference between "giving up" as a manifestation of laziness and "giving up" as a manifestation of renunciation. you renounce putting energy into the process of samsara. Then you're free to just practice. The fact of the matter is, if frustrations come up in practice - it's something you're going to have to deal with anyway, whether in practice or out. :namaste:


This is an interesting discussion which I'm just now catching on to, probably because I feel like I'm nearing a similar place even though I'm not involved with tantric practice. I'm not involved with anything really.

It's hard to place where I am in my practice right now. I, too, have a sense of giving up but it's not because of laziness - it's more of a sort of nihilism, a sense of pointlessness. I have wondered if it might be clinical depression, but that doesn't seem right as I don't feel depressed but just bored with everything. There's nothing new under the sun and that whole bag.

Without a teacher, it's difficult to assess myself. I still practice though. At least, I think it's practice!
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby dakini_boi » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:34 pm

mint wrote:
It's hard to place where I am in my practice right now. I, too, have a sense of giving up but it's not because of laziness - it's more of a sort of nihilism, a sense of pointlessness. I have wondered if it might be clinical depression, but that doesn't seem right as I don't feel depressed but just bored with everything. There's nothing new under the sun and that whole bag.


this sense of pointlessness that you describe is a very good sign. it's a sign of "weariness with samsara." it's actually necessary to have this to even take refuge sincerely. have you studied the 4 thoughts that turn the mind to dharma?
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