Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Ogyen » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:53 am

padma norbu wrote:I mostly think about it several times a day even when I'm not doing any sitting practice. Just lately, I've gotten to feel pretty good about not feeling guilty about not practicing. I came to a point where I just refuse to make mantra noises out of a sense of duty or fear of hell. They say half-assed practice is better than none, but I'm going to follow the Buddha's advice and think this out with my own damn mind. I don't think shutting off my brain and pushing my emotions into a ball deep down inside while I chant mantras is the answer.


there are many forms of practice. Sometimes, on forums, I'd rather someone took three seconds to be a bit more human to another poster that just pushed their imaginary button and be considerate of another REAL human being, than that same person feeling so holy for having sat on a cushion for 30 minutes.

The point is, practice is all-pervasive, everywhere you turn you CAN practice. Cushion time is important, no doubt about it, but how do you react when someone pisses you off, pushes your buttons, makes you feel insecure.... these things are far more indicative of your practice than how much time you can stretch repeating by rote mantras that you have a hard time feeling. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that either, but think of any sense that becomes numb by overstimulation. If you chant mechanically, best save the breath for perhaps reflecting on death and impermanence..? Dunno..

I mantra because I know that energy builds, big comes from small. It's not that I feel so compassionate every time I mantra, sometimes it's mechanical, but when it is, I focus on the rote that is the vehicle for energy. I'm in not tune with any magic mushroom hippydippy trip for peace and love, I'm not even a good Buddhist. I don't think I've ever been an exemplary -ist or -ian of any kind... though I admit that I do attempt to awaken bodhicitta in what small bits of time I get when I remember to be mindful.

Remember ...all energy builds, and nothing begun is ever lost. I'd rather feed a certain kind of energy (so called half-assed practice) bcos at the worst, it doesn't hurt. You can't go wrong meaning well if doing mantra. No-practice (for myself) leeches energy and habitual energy like inertia takes on a life and spiral of its own. Then I find myself being more and more self-important, finding my own neuroses to matter somehow...

If you're lazy, make it a point to use your laziness for your practice, and not against your practice. Perhaps when encountering some form of laziness in another person in your life that gets you riled up or going, think back to this laziness of yours, and how it chafes at your ideas of practice... it might elicit an interesting connection you may not have made before.

Practice is just being good to others. Everything else, falls into place and shape... Ask yourself a simple question: are you lazy about being good (as good as you can be) to yourself and others? If you're like 99.9% of the world, you are also doing your best. Just remember when you can, and if you can't do better next time!

:namaste:
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:24 am

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Dzogchen way is not creative visualization.


The Dzogchen way does not exclude visualization. Quite the contrary.


Yeah right, except that the instruction is always to see yourself as Tara but more importantly to feel it and not focus too much on the visualization at all because that is not the main point.

Or, in Namkhai Norbu's own words from Crystal and The Way of Light p.174: "Anuyoga (which is what the Green Tara practice of Namkhai Norbu is)...uses a form of visualization not found elsewhere: the visualization is manifested in an instant rather than it being built up gradually detail by detail as in the other yogas. At the Anuyoga level, one visualizes oneself as the deity, rather than visualizing the divinity as external to oneself, and the powerful sensation of being the 'deity' oneself is considered more important than the formation of a complete mental image of all the various details of the divinity and his or her surrounding mandala."
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:28 am

dakini_boi wrote:Making images of Buddhas is a perfectly valid form of practice, and it is said, a great way to accumulate merit. I think in the Gelugpa school as part of their ngondro they have to make 100,000 tsa tsas. Chanting Tara's mantra while drawing pictures of her sounds great. Why not?


padma norbu wrote:Anyway, the question is this: I think it might be helpful for me to go back to doing kriya yoga Tara or perhaps visualize myself as Tara in some way, but not just focus on Tibetan syllables spinning around.


Sure, find what works for you. You don't have to visualize syllables. If you can't see all the details, just focus on one part, like her hand or crown or lotus seat. Or you can just visualize green light with rainbows shooting everywhere. Some people are more kinaesthetic than visual - in that case, just having a "feeling sense" of her can work. One of my teachers has said something like, even just visualizing Guru Rinpoche's fingernail has inconceivable benefit. I've also heard that Dudjom Rinpoche advised beginners to visualize Vajrasattva as a white ball above their heads. (Yes, Padma Norbu, I know you're not a beginner!! :tongue: ) Each aspect of a deity's form symbolizes complete Buddhahood. The point is to have an experience of some quality of the deity. Not to "do it right." As a friend advised me when I was frustrated with my inability to practice properly, it is IMPOSSIBLE to practice properly. Haven't you noticed? Just trying to sincerely practice dharma in and of itself is amazing. Do your best, keep it engaging, try it different ways, and challenge yourself to add more detail to the visualization once in a while.

Ideally, the deity actually appears and you don't have to visualize. Failing that, everything else is an approximation.


Yes, thank you for this advice. It is funny, but it has taken me a long time to accept this fact and I am only just now starting to get it. When I practice, I am rigidly trying to do it right or else I feel like it is not good practice. Now that I think about it, that seems so obviously stupid, but it's the kind of thinking that makes me stop practicing for long periods because I feel like "oh what's the use? the main point is to try to be mindful, anyway, so I'll just try to do that..." and then of course I am not so great at that. May be getting better at mindfulness despite myself, though.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:39 am

Ogyen wrote:
padma norbu wrote:I mostly think about it several times a day even when I'm not doing any sitting practice. Just lately, I've gotten to feel pretty good about not feeling guilty about not practicing. I came to a point where I just refuse to make mantra noises out of a sense of duty or fear of hell. They say half-assed practice is better than none, but I'm going to follow the Buddha's advice and think this out with my own damn mind. I don't think shutting off my brain and pushing my emotions into a ball deep down inside while I chant mantras is the answer.


there are many forms of practice. Sometimes, on forums, I'd rather someone took three seconds to be a bit more human to another poster that just pushed their imaginary button and be considerate of another REAL human being, than that same person feeling so holy for having sat on a cushion for 30 minutes.

The point is, practice is all-pervasive, everywhere you turn you CAN practice. Cushion time is important, no doubt about it, but how do you react when someone pisses you off, pushes your buttons, makes you feel insecure.... these things are far more indicative of your practice than how much time you can stretch repeating by rote mantras that you have a hard time feeling. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that either, but think of any sense that becomes numb by overstimulation. If you chant mechanically, best save the breath for perhaps reflecting on death and impermanence..? Dunno..

I mantra because I know that energy builds, big comes from small. It's not that I feel so compassionate every time I mantra, sometimes it's mechanical, but when it is, I focus on the rote that is the vehicle for energy. I'm in not tune with any magic mushroom hippydippy trip for peace and love, I'm not even a good Buddhist. I don't think I've ever been an exemplary -ist or -ian of any kind... though I admit that I do attempt to awaken bodhicitta in what small bits of time I get when I remember to be mindful.

Remember ...all energy builds, and nothing begun is ever lost. I'd rather feed a certain kind of energy (so called half-assed practice) bcos at the worst, it doesn't hurt. You can't go wrong meaning well if doing mantra. No-practice (for myself) leeches energy and habitual energy like inertia takes on a life and spiral of its own. Then I find myself being more and more self-important, finding my own neuroses to matter somehow...

If you're lazy, make it a point to use your laziness for your practice, and not against your practice. Perhaps when encountering some form of laziness in another person in your life that gets you riled up or going, think back to this laziness of yours, and how it chafes at your ideas of practice... it might elicit an interesting connection you may not have made before.

Practice is just being good to others. Everything else, falls into place and shape... Ask yourself a simple question: are you lazy about being good (as good as you can be) to yourself and others? If you're like 99.9% of the world, you are also doing your best. Just remember when you can, and if you can't do better next time!

:namaste:
D.Ogyen


VERY good advice, imo. Something I actually needed to hear from someone else. Thank you.

So glad I am letting my guard down these days and telling the world I suck. It has really benefitted me quickly in many ways probably much more than years of trying to be a good practitioner. Now I feel like I can get back to practice without worrying and whining, I hope.

Still feel lazy, but I have strategies now and less guilt about non-sitting types of practice. With these mostly self-imposed burdens off my shoulders, I don't think daily sitting practice will seem so hopeless, anyway. I hope that for all the negativity I've vented here that ultimately this thread was somehow positive to other people besides just me and I also hope I didn't destroy my samaya beyond belief by openly discussing practices, complaining, expressing doubts, etc. Oh well, I can now do my best to repair that.

Thanks again and I think I will stop posting in this thread at this point.

:namaste:
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:30 am

Hi Padma Norbu, I haven't read this thread in detail, but if I may make a suggestion: just contemplate impermanence. It is a simple and powerful practice. Take a look at Vasubandhu's Karmasiddhiprakarana. It it the best explanation of karma, and hence rebirth.

http://lirs.ru/lib/Karmasiddhiprakarana ... n,1987.pdf
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby deepbluehum » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:36 am

PS if you are lazy consider tregcho, the lazy path to buddhahood (Dudjom Lingpa's "Buddhahood without Meditation.") Buddhism is a supermarket of practices. Just pick something that resonates with you (once you have worked through your doubts). BTW Buddhism must be scrutinized. It is being a good Buddhist to scrutinize the teachings.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby heart » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:21 am

padma norbu wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Dzogchen way is not creative visualization.


The Dzogchen way does not exclude visualization. Quite the contrary.


Yeah right, except that the instruction is always to see yourself as Tara but more importantly to feel it and not focus too much on the visualization at all because that is not the main point.

Or, in Namkhai Norbu's own words from Crystal and The Way of Light p.174: "Anuyoga (which is what the Green Tara practice of Namkhai Norbu is)...uses a form of visualization not found elsewhere: the visualization is manifested in an instant rather than it being built up gradually detail by detail as in the other yogas. At the Anuyoga level, one visualizes oneself as the deity, rather than visualizing the divinity as external to oneself, and the powerful sensation of being the 'deity' oneself is considered more important than the formation of a complete mental image of all the various details of the divinity and his or her surrounding mandala."


Most Tibetan sadhanas are anu-yoga style Namdrol once said. I think you should be as creative and inventive as you feel you need to be in this situation. Creativity is needed Vajrayana and that includes Dzogchen. No point in doing visualizations if you don't engage and overpower your mind with them. When Tara shines like an wild emerald sun in your mind you will feel close to the natural state. You should take whatever practice you do to the limit and that is your responsibility not your teachers.

/magnus
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby dakini_boi » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:32 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
padma norbu wrote:I mostly think about it several times a day even when I'm not doing any sitting practice. Just lately, I've gotten to feel pretty good about not feeling guilty about not practicing. I came to a point where I just refuse to make mantra noises out of a sense of duty or fear of hell. They say half-assed practice is better than none, but I'm going to follow the Buddha's advice and think this out with my own damn mind. I don't think shutting off my brain and pushing my emotions into a ball deep down inside while I chant mantras is the answer.

:thumbsup:


By the way, I think I should clarify a bit what I meant when I said half-assed practice is better than none. I certainly didn't mean it's better to use your practice to suppress your emotions and torture yourself!

Actually, what I meant is closer to Ogyen's beautiful post. She explained it way better and more thoroughly than I did. Practice isn't about "doing something you're supposed to do." It's about taking steps in the moment to decrease suffering and increase happiness and wisdom. The great thing is, in Vajrayana, anything can be a dharma practice. The point of this is not to be constantly neurotically trying to practice and obsessively saying mantras and prayers (trust me, I have experience with this!) The point is to recognize the opportunity that arises in each moment to increase causes for happiness, even in inconsequential ways. And notice when and how you're reinforcing your own suffering, and shift gears.
dakini_boi wrote:. . . Any yana that you practice (with the possible exception of Dzogchen as a stand-alone yana) requires you to have at least somewhat integrated all the yanas below it. So it's up to the practitioner to be flexible and use skillful means as necessary. . . to see beings as your mothers suffering in samsara, to see them as dakas and dakinis in a pure land, to see them as the play of your teacher, to see them as disgusting heaps of blood and flesh, etc. Dzogchen in particular could give the misunderstanding that you actually don't have to practice to attain liberation. . . when actually, you do. This misunderstanding could make you feel quite lazy, even when you know you do have to practice. . .

padma norbu wrote:I feel like there are too many options and so I just really have to try to stick to what works for me once I figure out exactly what that is. I simply can't flip a switch and believe everything is perfect and then flip it again and believe everything is disgusting heaps of blood and flesh. Rather, I tell myself: these circumstances are upsetting to me because we have manifested this reality with our karma and this is samsara. I can not look at samsara and say "IT IS PERFECT!" because it isn't. This makes no sense to me at all except if I explain it simply as cause-effect-result = balance and suffering = desire for liberation. In those two ways, it is "perfect." Other than that, I have to remember not to get confused by ideas of justice or some great plan as the theists do. There may be devas and dakinis all around me, helping me, trying to wake me up, etc. but I simply can't believe stuff like "the earth is a test where we learn to better ourselves" and such crap.


This isn't meant to be done arbitrarily - and it isn't as easy as flipping switches - it's mind training and take time and effort (well, except for rigpa, assuming you have it!). Basically, you endeavor to practice the view of whatever is the highest vehicle you have received transmission in. For example, if you are a Dzogchen practitioner, you ideally would be in the state of rigpa all the time. If your ability to be in rigpa is limited, you can practice Vajrayana "pure perception" - seeing all beings as the deity, and the environment as the pure land. If you have emotional and conceptual limits which make this too difficult, you can practice the Mahayana view of seeing all beings as your mothers suffering in samsara. If you are too emotionally distraught even to develop compassion, then you can at least take refuge/comfort in the idea that freedom from suffering is possible. If you lack faith even for this, then you can at least observe the drawbacks of samsara. . .

Now, since your limitations and capabilities are always changing, it's up to you to determine for yourself what is appropriate. You have to be flexible and creative. . . I think the idea of creating images of Green Tara, rather than just sit there doing her "practice," was a great solution you had - as I said before, the point is to cultivate a relationship and a sense of the qualities of the deity.

Anyway, I agree with you that Vajrayana can be a TRAP for perfectionists. (I have 4 planets in virgo, so I know a bit about perfectionism.) But it's set up in such a way that requires SO much of you, and at the same time it's IMPOSSIBLE to do it all correctly - and so then you have extensive protector practices, confession practices, fear of vajra hell, etc. . . it's just to keep us continually engaged and also humble. Because to actually attain Buddhahood in one lifetime is a huge undertaking. To even want to attempt it takes enormous guts.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:29 pm

heart wrote:Most Tibetan sadhanas are anu-yoga style Namdrol once said.


On p.174 in The Crystal and the Way of Light it says "Anuyoga is only found in Nyingmapa school."

heart wrote:I think you should be as creative and inventive as you feel you need to be in this situation. Creativity is needed Vajrayana and that includes Dzogchen. No point in doing visualizations if you don't engage and overpower your mind with them.


it is quite amazing but "Ah" is like flipping a switch for me. Trying to do any practice without it seems much harder to "overpower your mind," as you put it.

I see what you are saying, but it's funny how much nuance there is to my particular grievances, I suppose. It seems to take an extraordinary amount of words for me to explain my situation precisely...

If you want to read more (below), feel free. Don't feel obligated. I am sick of hearing myself talk and don't think anymore is necessary. Only wrote all this out (below) to explain more precisely... again, it's not necessary, only if you are interested.

As I've said before, possibly even on this thread (so don't think I'm suddenly changing my story on you here), I don't find it difficult at all to pass a certain point where sitting is possible for long periods of time and my mind is pretty much turned off, for lack of a better description. I don't visualize the Tibetan syllables. I visualize briefly an abstract version of them and quickly blur them into balls of light. I then just have a tendency to kind of flip back and forth between the central visualization with the spinning and an overall image of myself as the deity. This just happens naturally. Ideas tend to float up here and there; with Tara practice I see myself as Tara sending lights and benefitting beings and in wrathful deity practice I see the flames are burning away negativities and certain negative things in my life will briefly come to mind, in which case I usually just burn up the ideas quickly and then go back to the central spinning visualization. I just let these ideas happen and go back to visualizing the central spinning. I don't try to really "overpower" my mind because I think of these thoughts arising as the natural "speech" quality. To silence it seems you would be on your way to formless absorption.

I do have a limit of how many hours I can sit doing this kind of meditation, though, which is apparently due to the "wisdom energy" which is perceived as frustration to me. This is what I was told when I asked about it and then somewhat later I heard Pema Chodron talking about her experience with the same exact problem which she called "dakini bliss" and I recognized exactly what she was talking about. I have not worked with this enough to see how it can be perceived as non-frustration, though, because I am not eager to do another 3-day retreat and become frustrated by disappointment of not even being able to achieve that level of frustration again, which is ironic, but which is what I suspect will happen. Pema Chodron said as soon as Trungpa called it "dakini bliss" she felt it and didn't try to resist it anymore and then it simply went away.

The fact is, I had a very significant experience (to me, anyway) which I have just typed out and then deleted because I think sharing experiences is viewed as bragging or breaking samaya, so I'll just keep it to myself. I've already shared it with my teacher(s). The fact that I did have this experience which then resulted in utter frustration and which does not really seem to have made much of a difference in my behavior/outlook is probably a big part of the frustration you see expressed here. I can plainly see how others might read this and say, "wow, that's pathetic. You get a little taste and give up!" And I don't disagree with that feeling at all. The frustration has caused me to become lazy and perhaps even a bit afraid of stirring up that extreme level of frustration again through practice. I think this really might be the ego collapsing, but it feels like you're on the brink of insanity when it happens. I don't relish the idea of facing that alone on a weekend retreat when I have a stack of work waiting for me at the office on monday.

I don't have the luxury to do much about this situation, really. I have a wife that wants to always go on vacation when I can get a few days off work and I make almost no money and am in debt up to my eyeballs, so I can't really pay for a weeklong retreat somewhere with professional 'babysitters' to make sure I don't go crazy and then take another week off to recuperate from whatever insanity I unleash upon myself before returning to work. So, there are a lot of obstacles in my life which practice isn't really helping in any way. Rather, it seems like practice is highlighting these obstacles and making them seem much more unpleasant.

All of these reasons is why I started this thread. I felt like I should just try to improve my relative existence and focus on getting myself out of this hole rather than trying to do some practice and not worrying about it. This was the advice of Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche, for example. He had students worrying about paying the bills and he was taking food and going outside to feed the birds with it and inviting people over and feeding them when they didn't have the money to feed themselves. When his students expressed concern, he said, "Give. Don't worry, just give." And the moral of the story was that, as the visitors increased, so did his students and as his students increased the donations poured in and everything worked out. Chagdud Tulku always gave credit to Red Tara for taking care of him.

I don't know what to make of my situation, really. I have had good intentions for so long, but my practice stinks and my relative situation isn't really improving. I know others have it so much worse than me out there for sure. There is also something that is... not really hypocritical, but... while renouncing samsara, I have moments where I just have to indulge my desires, even ones that seem negative. I think perhaps understanding Tantra better might be the right thing for me. I don't really try to practice "the path of transformation," but I think I should. Instead I have "an attitude of renounciation" as if nothing is really that important (which is truly how I feel) and try to be mindful and experience things as one taste. But, I think learning to transform desire and feel myself as the deity might be just the ticket for me... so I am reading Lama Yeshe's "Introduction To Tantra" now and trying to fill in whatever blanks I am still missing. I don't really have a thorough understanding of Tantra and it really seems that this might be a most useful tool for me.

Anyway, like I said, I'm going to get back to practice and not worry about it. I am not going to treat my career as a second-rate concern any longer, though. I am going to work hard at my career to get myself out of this rut so that hopefully I will have more luxury to practice. In the past, I have reasoned that suffering is what inspires us to practice because if our lives are are too good and filled with luxury and entertainment, then we will get lazy about practice. Well, look at me now. The only difference is I'm poor.

I'm just going to try to dedicate a half hour to sitting practice in the morning and again at night. I have done this in the past and I absolutely KNOW that I will become rushing and frustrated about it when I am running late or just plain don't want to do it, but oh well. When I feel this way I will try to incorprate the drawing/painting into the practice (as I mentioned earlier) to develop bodhicitta.

heart wrote:This When Tara shines like an wild emerald sun in your mind you will feel close to the natural state.


This has definitely happened and that is part of the reason I have had this frustrated feeling about practice. Having some major breakthroughs did not seem to really change my reality very much or make practice easier.

heart wrote:You should take whatever practice you do to the limit and that is your responsibility not your teachers.
/magnus


Yes, good to remember. Occasionally, frustration has caused me to feel somewhat resentful or doubting of my teachers. Even while it happens, I know this is a major no-no, but the emotions arise and I can not simply deny they have arisen. I try to analyze the thoughts rather than indulge them and make sure never to act on the feelings by expressing them. Then, when that feeling has passed, I try to apologize silently and with real regret prior to my next tun. Nothing feels more hypocritical than to have been in a really bad place for a few days with thoughts of blame arising and then returning to your altar with pictures of your teachers on it and being like, "hey guys, let's be friends now..."


Okay, and now I think I've explained everything as much as possible and I am back on track again anyway, now, so again I would like to express that I don't intend on writing anymore in this thread and that I hope it is somehow overall a positive experience for everyone despite the negative emotions expressed.

:namaste:
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:02 pm

Practices aren't there to change "reality", they are there to help us change the way we see "reality".

Of course when we change our view of reality, this also changes the way we act, and this in turn changes "reality".

But one thing you can't forget is that samsara is infinite, it'll always throw something at us that we want to change, and then we just practice some more...

ad nauseum...

Let's not delude ourselves, the path is the goal, the practice is the outcome! Once we realise that then everything changes!
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Ogyen » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:47 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Practices aren't there to change "reality", they are there to help us change the way we see "reality".

Of course when we change our view of reality, this also changes the way we act, and this in turn changes "reality".

But one thing you can't forget is that samsara is infinite, it'll always throw something at us that we want to change, and then we just practice some more...

ad nauseum...

Let's not delude ourselves, the path is the goal, the practice is the outcome! Once we realise that then everything changes!
:namaste:


Holy crap Greg! I'm impressed with how much you've come to this simply! I can recall a similar conversation like this some now 3 years ago and how different your response was. Wow... like.. wow.

You've made my day! Thank you! You are the proof of this "reality" changing, I see. My confidence in dharma is bolstered a touch more, may that benefit all beings. :heart:

:namaste:
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:55 pm

okay, well, who am I to refuse if people would like to just continue the discussion? I am not going to talk about my problems anymore, but if you want to share ideas....

gregkavarnos wrote:Practices aren't there to change "reality", they are there to help us change the way we see "reality".

Of course when we change our view of reality, this also changes the way we act, and this in turn changes "reality".


So, they change reality.

gregkavarnos wrote:But one thing you can't forget is that samsara is infinite, it'll always throw something at us that we want to change, and then we just practice some more...

ad nauseum...

Let's not delude ourselves, the path is the goal, the practice is the outcome! Once we realise that then everything changes!


I'm pretty sure the "path is the goal" is to be taken on a few different levels. Realization of Buddhahood means an end to samsara and the manifestation of wisdom bodies is spontaneous, the actions of which are not concerned with samsara in remotely the same fashion as we are. Are the Buddhas still "on the path?" I suppose you could say that, but how these deities exist or manifest is something beyond our capacity to understand for the very simple fact that they now reside in darmakaya and the manifestation of enjoyment bodies is automatic, spontaneous enlightened activity. I could become utterly brainwashed to be an automaton spontaneously responding with loving kindness to all sentient beings in all circumstances and utterly brainwashed to believe that nothing is truly real and to see it all as a nondual, dependently arising display full of ignorant perceivers who can't see the big picture (with the brainwashing techniques we have today, this is entirely possible, I think), but I would not be a Buddha. I would just be brainwashed and probably very well-behaved but a strangely blank creature of habit. Kind of like a Hare Krishna, maybe. I don't know too much about them, but the little contact I've had reeks of brainwashing.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:28 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Practices aren't there to change "reality", they are there to help us change the way we see "reality".

Of course when we change our view of reality, this also changes the way we act, and this in turn changes "reality".


:bow: :bow: :bow:

"The Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will".
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:34 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Practices aren't there to change "reality", they are there to help us change the way we see "reality".

Of course when we change our view of reality, this also changes the way we act, and this in turn changes "reality".


:bow: :bow: :bow:

"The Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will".


I find it bizarre that you just quoted Aleister Crowley's definition of magick verbatim.

http://www.google.com/search?gcx=w&sour ... th+Will%22

Intentional or accidental?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Virgo » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:16 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:"The Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will".


I find it bizarre that you just quoted Aleister Crowley's definition of magick verbatim.

Wouldn't it be better if it were, "The Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with our Will through ritual".

Any change we purposefully affect is driven partially by will, so this definition is a little bit lacking.

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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:20 am

padma norbu wrote:I find it bizarre that you just quoted Aleister Crowley's definition of magick verbatim.

Intentional or accidental?


Oh intentional. For me Dzogchen is the real magick.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:42 am

Did you ever read much of his work or actually work his system? I've often thought about the very obvious Vajrayana influence on his work and wonder exactly where it came from. That wasn't the kind of Buddhism he studied. Some of the stuff he came up with reminds me of Dzogchen, too. There are a few people out there trying to promote a sort of fusion of his work and Vajrayana (e.g. Sam Webster), but it doesn't seem proper to me. I've often thought about why, too, since Buddhism is all about love, acceptance and integrating. It takes the shape of whatever culture it's in. But, I don't know, it doesn't really make sense to me to use Egyptian gods for Buddhist practice. Or, I guess it might be more accurate to say that he uses Buddhist practice to worship Egyptian gods. It's clear he has a Buddhist understanding and he applies that to Thelema for some reason. Not entirely sure why.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Virgo » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:59 am

padma norbu wrote:Did you ever read much of his work or actually work his system? I've often thought about the very obvious Vajrayana influence on his work and wonder exactly where it came from. That wasn't the kind of Buddhism he studied. Some of the stuff he came up with reminds me of Dzogchen, too. There are a few people out there trying to promote a sort of fusion of his work and Vajrayana (e.g. Sam Webster), but it doesn't seem proper to me. I've often thought about why, too, since Buddhism is all about love, acceptance and integrating. It takes the shape of whatever culture it's in. But, I don't know, it doesn't really make sense to me to use Egyptian gods for Buddhist practice. Or, I guess it might be more accurate to say that he uses Buddhist practice to worship Egyptian gods. It's clear he has a Buddhist understanding and he applies that to Thelema for some reason. Not entirely sure why.

Why? Because different beings have different defilements. :smile:

That is to say, he was under the sway of his defilements.

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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:08 am

padma norbu wrote:So, they change reality.
I've tried three times to reply to this post and every time something went wrong. I'll just leave it at that then!

I'm pretty sure the "path is the goal" is to be taken on a few different levels. Realization of Buddhahood means an end to samsara and the manifestation of wisdom bodies is spontaneous, the actions of which are not concerned with samsara in remotely the same fashion as we are. Are the Buddhas still "on the path?"
Buddhas are beyond the dualisms of path and goal.

I could become utterly brainwashed to be an automaton spontaneously responding with loving kindness to all sentient beings in all circumstances and utterly brainwashed to believe that nothing is truly real and to see it all as a nondual, dependently arising display full of ignorant perceivers who can't see the big picture (with the brainwashing techniques we have today, this is entirely possible, I think), but I would not be a Buddha.
True, but these practices are also designed to accumulate merit, something that never goes astray.

I would just be brainwashed and probably very well-behaved but a strangely blank creature of habit. Kind of like a Hare Krishna, maybe. I don't know too much about them, but the little contact I've had reeks of brainwashing.
Well, let's not forget the importance of intention in our practice. Like I said above, accumulating merit and not accumulating negative outcomes is not such a bad thing: "fake it 'til you make it!" My advice to you (and me) is to assess your motivation for practice. At the empowerments I just attended Beru Khyentse, at the beginning of each session, would talk about the importance of the correct motivation for receiving the practices. Most of the time I was thinking about how much of an idiot I was receiving the practices since my motivation was unclear and everytime that I tried to arouse bodhicitta I hit a stone wall. But I think it's better to recognise that you are not correctly motivated and to try to be correctly motivated (even if it feels "weird") than to continue lashing out randomly and (obviously) causing suffering.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Postby Sönam » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:56 am

Ogyen wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Practices aren't there to change "reality", they are there to help us change the way we see "reality".

Of course when we change our view of reality, this also changes the way we act, and this in turn changes "reality".

But one thing you can't forget is that samsara is infinite, it'll always throw something at us that we want to change, and then we just practice some more...

ad nauseum...

Let's not delude ourselves, the path is the goal, the practice is the outcome! Once we realise that then everything changes!
:namaste:


Holy crap Greg! I'm impressed with how much you've come to this simply! I can recall a similar conversation like this some now 3 years ago and how different your response was. Wow... like.. wow.

You've made my day! Thank you! You are the proof of this "reality" changing, I see. My confidence in dharma is bolstered a touch more, may that benefit all beings. :heart:

:namaste:
D.


agree!

:twothumbsup:
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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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