Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Virgo
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Virgo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Virgo wrote:For example, I think it was Sariputra that attained Arhatship lying down to go to sleep.
Ananda.

Maitri,
Retro. :)
Thank you, Retro. I suspected it wasn't Sariputra because he attained Arhatship after walking back and forth and contemplating the teachings all night long. But I was very tired that day. Don't know where my mind was at. Too much work. :)

Kevin
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padma norbu
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Dechen Norbu wrote:You want "pyrotechnics" or "fireworks"?
Nope.
Dechen Norbu wrote:Excel at Chöd.
Oh, that happens pretty quick, does it? Doubt it.
Dechen Norbu wrote:We will see if you have stomach for that then. :lol:
Well, I could share some experiences with frightening circumstances, but that's not the point. As I said, I don't want "pyrotechnics."
Dechen Norbu wrote:Really, those "paranormal phenomena" are not the things you should be expecting.
Who said I wanted that? I really don't care about that. What would be nice is to not feel the need to start threads like this. That would be something, wouldn't it?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Careful, singing SoV doesn't necessarily mean you're in the state of contemplation always during it. Or even during a part of it.
Of course. Generally, most aren't. At most, those who failed yet to recognize rigpa can be mindful when doing it. I personally believe this applies to most.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Virgo »

padma norbu wrote:
Yes, I think part of the problem is that I consider all the hours I've spent chanting a particular mantra and think about the fact that (A) I haven't really noticed any improvement in anything as a result, (B) my mind wanders during chanting and so I think I'm not doing it right and wasting my time, (C) think about the fact that Vajrayana methods include specific visualizations and intentions, which of course seem like they would work on your conscious and subconscious mind by undoing deep habitual patterns related to self and others... while Dzogchen methods say not to think about visualization or relative benefit much at all and that this would actually be more a powerful way to practice (I think) unless you don't have that capacity. So... let's say I'm doing Green Tara. What is the point of remaining in rigpa while chanting her mantra? Why not just remain in rigpa and stare at the wall?
Tantric practices can be extremely powerful. In the Dzogchen view we have to be very open. So even when we are constructing something we can do it from that view. For example, from clear emptiness arises... and so on.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Dechen Norbu »

padma norbu wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:You want "pyrotechnics" or "fireworks"?
Nope.
Dechen Norbu wrote:Excel at Chöd.
Oh, that happens pretty quick, does it? Doubt it.
Dechen Norbu wrote:We will see if you have stomach for that then. :lol:
Well, I could share some experiences with frightening circumstances, but that's not the point. As I said, I don't want "pyrotechnics."
Dechen Norbu wrote:Really, those "paranormal phenomena" are not the things you should be expecting.
Who said I wanted that? I really don't care about that. What would be nice is to not feel the need to start threads like this. That would be something, wouldn't it?
I'm sorry if I got the wrong impression. :namaste:

PS Well, excelling at Chöd depends on a lot of things. Some do it quite fast. Some never get there. :smile:
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Dechen Norbu wrote: It won't take hour or days if you have proper instruction either. You just need a teacher willing to give it to you. And this raises a shitload of questions. Anyway, I think I said all I wanted about this thread, friend! Hang in there! And again, talk to your teacher (this already starts sounding like a mantra :lol: )

All the best!
Sorry, but I don't believe you. I've already talked to my teacher. It takes hours. Jim Valby said it, many others have said it. I don't want to put words in Namkhai Norbu's mouth, so I am not going to say that he said it takes many hours to make contact with a godform, but I can certainly say with confidence Jim Valby and others said it takes many hours. This is the whole point of 3-day and 7-day retreats. And then people freak out and lose their shit on these retreats and go crazy sometimes. I did a Tara retreat and was incredibly hostile afterward. So much so that the first thing I did was go out and get a 6-pack so I would not flip out on my neighbors who flipped a switch that provoked me beyond my wildest expectations. I was told this frustration was the experiential result of the wisdom energy from the retreat.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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BTW, Dechen Norbu, did I meet you when Norbu came to NY a few years ago? You look like the guy who told me in line that Namkhai Norbu would probably begin to appear in my dreams while we waited in line to speak to him after the retreat. Whoever the person was said that it often happened after a retreat that there was a link and this was a very common experience. FYI, he has, but he has always looked at me with a concerned expression and left without saying anything. This was while I was actively trying to practice Dream Yoga. After a couple years, I finally gave up on that.
Last edited by padma norbu on Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Virgo »

padma norbu wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:Lazy people have a hindrance. Hyped people have a hindrance. We have many hindrances. Otherwise we wouldn't need to practice.

Laziness is a problem until one finds bliss in meditation. Then bliss is a problem if one gets attached to it. We will always find obstacles to overcome. We need to recognize them and then overcome them with the proper methods. Always keep in mind that we are going through the clouds towards the sunny sky which is already there and will always be. Not mattering how many clouds we need to cut through, the sunny sky is still there. :smile:
Yes. Intellectual understanding isn't the problem for me. Just plain lazy.
Take some food to balance your body. Do some yoga. When you wake up, take a few minutes just to breath, etc.

Kevin
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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padma norbu wrote:BTW, Dechen Norbu, did I meet you when Norbu came to NY a few years ago? You look like the guy who told me in line that Namkhai Norbu would probably begin to appear in my dreams while we waited in line to speak to him after the retreat. Whoever the person was said that it often happened after a retreat that there was a link and this was a very common experience. FYI, he has, but he has always looked at me with a concerned expression and left without saying anything. This was while I was actively trying to practice Dream Yoga. After a couple years, I finally gave up on that.
Nope. That was not me. And I would never say such thing to a stranger. :lol:
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Anyway, good advice, guys. Thanks for caring. :twothumbsup:
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Dechen Norbu »

padma norbu wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote: It won't take hour or days if you have proper instruction either. You just need a teacher willing to give it to you. And this raises a shitload of questions. Anyway, I think I said all I wanted about this thread, friend! Hang in there! And again, talk to your teacher (this already starts sounding like a mantra :lol: )

All the best!
Sorry, but I don't believe you. I've already talked to my teacher. It takes hours. Jim Valby said it, many others have said it. I don't want to put words in Namkhai Norbu's mouth, so I am not going to say that he said it takes many hours to make contact with a godform, but I can certainly say with confidence Jim Valby and others said it takes many hours. This is the whole point of 3-day and 7-day retreats. And then people freak out and lose their shit on these retreats and go crazy sometimes. I did a Tara retreat and was incredibly hostile afterward. So much so that the first thing I did was go out and get a 6-pack so I would not flip out on my neighbors who flipped a switch that provoked me beyond my wildest expectations. I was told this frustration was the experiential result of the wisdom energy from the retreat.
Well, what can I say... we are all different. And a few days is a very short period for most.
Anyway, I have to go now.

Best wishes!
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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padma norbu wrote:Anyway, good advice, guys. Thanks for caring. :twothumbsup:
Our energy can be effected by many things. You don't have to be a health nut but avoid too much junk. Try not to stay up late. Only reason I do is because of my job-- I usually work a later shift, but my shift actually changes all the time. We have an erratic schedule.

With a bright attitude, and feeling good, doing practice will become easy.

Kevin
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Dechen Norbu wrote:
padma norbu wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote: It won't take hour or days if you have proper instruction either. You just need a teacher willing to give it to you. And this raises a shitload of questions. Anyway, I think I said all I wanted about this thread, friend! Hang in there! And again, talk to your teacher (this already starts sounding like a mantra :lol: )

All the best!
Sorry, but I don't believe you. I've already talked to my teacher. It takes hours. Jim Valby said it, many others have said it. I don't want to put words in Namkhai Norbu's mouth, so I am not going to say that he said it takes many hours to make contact with a godform, but I can certainly say with confidence Jim Valby and others said it takes many hours. This is the whole point of 3-day and 7-day retreats. And then people freak out and lose their shit on these retreats and go crazy sometimes. I did a Tara retreat and was incredibly hostile afterward. So much so that the first thing I did was go out and get a 6-pack so I would not flip out on my neighbors who flipped a switch that provoked me beyond my wildest expectations. I was told this frustration was the experiential result of the wisdom energy from the retreat.
Well, what can I say... we are all different. And a few days is a very short period for most.
Anyway, I have to go now.

Best wishes!
So you are saying it takes even longer or else you are saying a few days isn't really that long. Either way, doesn't beat 15 minutes to a half hour.

I am not saying this to try to indicate that Kabballah is better or something. I don't even want to dwell on it. I'm just trying to clarify what you and others don't seem to understand about my comments regarding lengthy practice and results.

I am involved in Dzogchen because I want to see change. If this is "lust for result" clinging, as someone will surely say it is, then wtf are we doing here? You really can't have it both ways. You can't pretend like you don't care about achieving the fruit of the path and then care at the same time about practice. If you really don't care, then you simply don't care and so it won't bother you that for the last 10 years you did nothing about it. All the comments on this thread prove that you people do all care just as much as me by the comments such as "in 10 years you'll think of how many Taras you could have done" and "you'll be eager to practice at the end of your life," etc.

Virgo's signature here shows a quote from Namdrol which reads "Realization is bullsh*t." Really? Why do all teachers exist then? Why does Namkhai Norbu often say "such-and-such is important four our realization" with an emphasis on that particular word? Is his emphasis to indicate that he means it is really "bullshit?"
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Those are all really interesting questions. :smile:

Best wishes!
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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padma norbu wrote: I am involved in Dzogchen because I want to see change. If this is "lust for result" clinging, as someone will surely say it is, then wtf are we doing here? You really can't have it both ways. You can't pretend like you don't care about achieving the fruit of the path and then care at the same time about practice. If you really don't care, then you simply don't care and so it won't bother you that for the last 10 years you did nothing about it. All the comments on this thread prove that you people do all care just as much as me by the comments such as "in 10 years you'll think of how many Taras you could have done" and "you'll be eager to practice at the end of your life," etc.
Read some of ChNN's books.
padma norbu wrote:Virgo's signature here shows a quote from Namdrol which reads "Realization is bullsh*t." Really? Why do all teachers exist then? Why does Namkhai Norbu often say "such-and-such is important four our realization" with an emphasis on that particular word? Is his emphasis to indicate that he means it is really "bullshit?"
We grasp every damn thing, reify every damn thing. "Realization". Grasp, grasp, grasp. Not saying I don't do it too. I do. But grasping is not our way. .

Everything is bullsh*t.

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:34 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Just curious...what is your motivation for doing dharma practice? What I mean is, why do you do it?
also, What is the result that you are looking for, and why do you want that result?
The reason why I asked this is because sometimes one's motivation is the problem.
It isn't the person, and it isn't the practice, and the problem isn't that they don't fit together.

If you engage in any type of dharma activity, whether it is some form of meditation, or ngondro, studying texts, or doing visualizations or chanting or whatever and your motivation is impure, then the results will not be forthcoming.

I want to clarify this. Actually, I hate the word "impure" but that is the terminology I have become accustomed to. It doesn't mean that you have a dirty mind or some sinister ulterior motive, or that everybody else but you is somehow 'pure'. It doesn't mean that at all. It isn't about you.

Pure motivation means that the sole purpose in practicing the Dharma is to benefit all sentient beings without exception.
So, if someone asks, "what is your motivation for doing dharma practice?" your immediate answer should be something along those lines.

There are three benefits in developing this motivation, this bodhicitta. First of all, because you are practicing out of compassion for the suffering of others and not out of your own personal concern, the immediate benfit is that you stop focusing on "me", on the permanent self, and the moment you begin to do that, you start to experience liberation (a little tiny bit).

The second benefit is that in order to do this you develop confidence that the teachings are valid. So there is the buddhist version of 'faith' which is not the same as blind faith in a god, or a doctrine, but it is a kind of invincible confidence that removes all doubt. The moment when you overcome this doubt, liberation is hastened.

The third benefit is that when you have this pure motivation, practice becomes effortless. It is no longer tedious nor is it especially exciting, meaning that it isn't something you have to crank the volume way up on. It is just natural and spontaneous. And it is joyful. When your practice becomes truly effortless, your intentions are realized easily in all kinds of situations and liberation occurs in all kinds of situations. Everything becomes your buddha realm.

That's why I asked about your motivation. Dharma practice gets to be a drag when it's "all about me" and "my expectations" and so forth. By developing the altruistic motivation that the reason i practice is to benefit others, "Me" is gradually taken out of the equation, and when that happens there is no laziness, no business, no irritation whatsoever.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Virgo wrote: Read some of ChNN's books.
In addition to gravitating toward Dzogchen and Namkhai Norbue so that I might acquire a longer, girthier dong and vast sums of money, I have also never read one of ChNN's books.
Virgo wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Virgo's signature here shows a quote from Namdrol which reads "Realization is bullsh*t." Really? Why do all teachers exist then? Why does Namkhai Norbu often say "such-and-such is important four our realization" with an emphasis on that particular word? Is his emphasis to indicate that he means it is really "bullshit?"
We grasp every damn thing, reify every damn thing. "Realization". Grasp, grasp, grasp. Not saying I don't do it too. I do. But grasping is not our way. .

Everything is bullsh*t.

Kevin
That statement is bullsh*t in fact since all reification occurs within dharmakaya which is beyond concepts and is therefore decidedly not bullsh*t, lest it be a mere concept. I don't see why people say such things.
Last edited by padma norbu on Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

Post by padma norbu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Just curious...what is your motivation for doing dharma practice? What I mean is, why do you do it?
also, What is the result that you are looking for, and why do you want that result?
The reason why I asked this is because sometimes one's motivation is the problem.
It isn't the person, and it isn't the practice, and the problem isn't that they don't fit together.
I believe I answered this question already.
PadmaVonSamba wrote:Pure motivation means that the sole purpose in practicing the Dharma is to benefit all sentient beings without exception.
So, if someone asks, "what is your motivation for doing dharma practice?" your immediate answer should be something along those lines.
Meh. Sounds good, but caring about sentient beings is clinging to samsara and delusion. Furthermore, there will ALWAYS be delusion of sentient beings in samsara. The goal is to theoretically help all beings starting with oneself. The result of that goal is spontaneous manifestation of a Sambhogakaya Buddha while experience of the dharmakaya is beyond any such concerns and the resultant Buddha sort of functions automatically as is needed by sentient beings. Understanding this is just as important.

Of course I want all beings to be free of suffering. I see all the rest, too.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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padma norbu wrote: In addition to gravitating toward Dzogchen and Namkhai Norbue so that I might acquire a longer, girthier dong and vast sums of money, I have also never read one of ChNN's books.
I don't know if it will effect your manly status, but I think it will answer a lot of the questions you have, and speak to things you asked in this thread.
Virgo wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Virgo's signature here shows a quote from Namdrol which reads "Realization is bullsh*t." Really? Why do all teachers exist then? Why does Namkhai Norbu often say "such-and-such is important four our realization" with an emphasis on that particular word? Is his emphasis to indicate that he means it is really "bullshit?"
We grasp every damn thing, reify every damn thing. "Realization". Grasp, grasp, grasp. Not saying I don't do it too. I do. But grasping is not our way. .

Everything is bullsh*t.

Kevin
padma norbu wrote:That statement is bullsh*t in fact since all reification occurs within dharmakaya
Bullshit. You are grasping the "dharmakaya". It's a good conceptual framework of course, but the dharmakaya has no essential essence, and does not arise. So no shit exists and it exists nowhere.

Kevin
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Re: Lazy people should just give up, right?

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Virgo wrote:
padma norbu wrote:That statement is bullsh*t in fact since all reification occurs within dharmakaya
Bullshit. You are grasping the "dharmakaya". It's a good conceptual framework of course, but the dharmakaya has no essential essence, and does not arise. So no shit exists and it exists nowhere.

Kevin
Bullshit. You are grasping at me grasping at something. Dharmakaya includes the Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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