Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

[Pero]

Is this what Longchenpa meant when he said a person should be like a bee?

No. That is just just an example of how a beginner should behave, like a bee tasting many flowers, one should taste many teachings till one finds the real meaning. More or less like that. Khm, I hope this wasn't a secret.

[Sönam]

Rinpoché also says :
"Why we need to learn practice others traditions? because we need to integrate all traditions, any kind of practice. But we go in essence. We are already in Sambhogakaya, when you integrate you learn how you go to sambhogakaya with that tradition."

[muni]

Can a complete beginner benefit from Dzogchen practice?

A complete beginner being somebody with no formal religious experience, no knowledge of Buddhism, etc.

In short, can a person make the transition from being spiritually aloof to practicing Dzogchen and achieve the benefit of realization?

After general study, without devotion; no Dzogchen Practice at all.
Be the lesser among all, see all as precious. (Shechen teaching).




_/\_

[White Lotus]

a complete beginner, is a complete expert in dzogpo chenpa because there is nothing special to understand or realize. just as he is he is a master, whether he be an idiot or an expert... makes no difference. sometimes being an expert can complicate this simple thing. your own natural state. you are already complete, just as you are. thats rigpa.

best wishes, Tom.

[Sönam]

WL you polluate that forum ...

Sönam

[mint]

Dzogchen is Buddhist, after all.

Does this mean that it is necessary to take refuge in the Three Jewels prior to receiving Direct Transmission from the guru? Or can a person receive the Direct Transmission without going for refuge?

[heart]

Dzogchen is Buddhist, after all.

Does this mean that it is necessary to take refuge in the Three Jewels prior to receiving Direct Transmission from the guru? Or can a person receive the Direct Transmission without going for refuge?

Depends on the teacher. Anyway, taking refuge is something very inspiring, I treasure that moment as much as my first direct introduction. I always thought my teacher actually gave direct introduction after the refuge ritual, but I wasn't ready.

/magnus

[mint]

Does this mean that it is necessary to take refuge in the Three Jewels prior to receiving Direct Transmission from the guru? Or can a person receive the Direct Transmission without going for refuge?

Depends on the teacher. Anyway, taking refuge is something very inspiring, I treasure that moment as much as my first direct introduction. I always thought my teacher actually gave direct introduction after the refuge ritual, but I wasn't ready.

/magnus

Does ChNNR require that a person take refuge in the Three Jewels prior to receiving the Direct Transmission?

[heart]

Does this mean that it is necessary to take refuge in the Three Jewels prior to receiving Direct Transmission from the guru? Or can a person receive the Direct Transmission without going for refuge?

Depends on the teacher. Anyway, taking refuge is something very inspiring, I treasure that moment as much as my first direct introduction. I always thought my teacher actually gave direct introduction after the refuge ritual, but I wasn't ready.

/magnus

Does ChNNR require that a person take refuge in the Three Jewels prior to receiving the Direct Transmission?

Not to my knowledge, I think he don't even perform the refuge ritual.

/magnus

[booker]

Nope, He doesn't and noone is asked about formal Three Jewel ritual in order to receive the introduction.

As to refuge it is a part of short, medium and long Tuns (practices) so you'll get them every time anyway

Dzogchen is Buddhist, after all.

Hehe, this might be interesting one Dzogchen Without Buddhism, London, 5 -6 Nov with Jim Valby

Anyone from here coming?

[mint]

After general study, without devotion; no Dzogchen Practice at all.
Be the lesser among all, see all as precious. (Shechen teaching).

I take this to mean that a person read, read, read all they can, but if they don't have devotion then they continue in ignorance whereas the road lesser travelled is to become a Dzogchen practitioner, right?

[Kai]

Dzogchen is Buddhist, after all.

Hehe, this might be interesting one Dzogchen Without Buddhism, London, 5 -6 Nov with Jim Valby

This is even more interesting.........

Dzogchen Without Buddhism?

[booker]

Ye who knows what it's going to be said durring these two days, def. worth attending in my book. Maybe they'll say the same like Namdrol, maybe not, who knows

[Pero]

If you've got a chance to listen to Jim Valby I think you should try to go.

[treehuggingoctopus]

Hehe, this might be interesting one Dzogchen Without Buddhism, London, 5 -6 Nov with Jim Valby

Go there if you can find the time. I can't recommend Valby's retreats strongly enough.

[White Lotus]

Sonam, i am sorry if you think so. i hope you are wrong.

best wishes, Tom.

[Sönam]

Sonam, i am sorry if you think so. i hope you are wrong.

best wishes, Tom.

Even to be right is not enough ... if one fail to communicate it.

Sönam

[muni]

After general study, without devotion; no Dzogchen Practice at all.
Be the lesser among all, see all as precious. (Shechen teaching).

I take this to mean that a person read, read, read all they can, but if they don't have devotion then they continue in ignorance whereas the road lesser travelled is to become a Dzogchen practitioner, right?

like here so: http://lojongmindtraining.com/Commentar ... proverb=35

[TravisMay11]

Personally, from what I experienced and witnessed, I do not think that there is much benefit of practicing dzogchen as a complete beginner (unless you are that extremely rare prodigy, as someone else mentioned). The first time I practiced with a group, that is, doing anything but reading and talking conceptually with others on my own, was with a Dzogchen group. The first day in the door, without any explanation, I was doing a Vajrasattva sadhana. Up to this point, my reading had mostly been about Zen & Taoism, so I was pretty much totally unfamiliar with Tibetan Buddhism. I didn't know if Vajrasattva was a god that these people worshipped or what the hell was going on.

I can't remember the sources right off hand where I've read about this, at the moment, but I believe traditionally that no one ever started practicing Dzogchen right off the bat. People came to it only after much study & practice within hinayana and mahayana- even if these were presented from a vajrayana perspective. Even besides the understanding of the view, I don't think my mind was properly settled to even attempt sadhana practice, or resting in ripga, without many hundreds of hours of shamatha practice.

This is just my two cents, and perhaps some people are better off just starting with Dzogchen, but I would recommend being grounded in sitting practice, and the study & contemplation of hinayana & mahayana topics before moving to vajrayana.

Also, and unfortunately I don't remember the source for this either, but I heard a teaching from someone saying that when Tibetan teachers came to the West they were in awe of Westerners because of our highly advanced technology and complex society. So, they assumed that we were highly evolved and that we could be taught the highest vajrayana teachings. They didn't want to insult us with the basics. So, when Trungpa Rinpoche came here in 1970 he was teaching vajrayana- mahamudra & dzogchen. But, then he realized that nothing was happening. It was because no one was grounded, people's minds were wild & grapsing (spiritual materialism) and he realized he had to start from the beginning, make people sit, study the abhidharma, and essentially learn how to be decent sane human beings first.

But, of course, it's not like we master or complete the hinayana or the mahayana before moving on, when we're practicing vajrayana (in Trungpa Rinpoche's lineage at least) we're practicing all three yanas together. But, there is a lot of preparation done, a lot of taming & training of the mind before one goes on to the higher teachings.

[Malcolm]

I can't remember the sources right off hand where I've read about this, at the moment, but I believe traditionally that no one ever started practicing Dzogchen right off the bat.

One's good fortune in meeting Dzogchen teachings in this life depend greatly upon one's merit from past lives. If you have the merit to meet a great master like ChNN, etc., don't waste your time doing other things. Merely meeting such a master is a sign that you are not a "beginner" in Dzogchen teachings, it is a sign that one is riding the crest of one's merit from past lives.

if you follow a master like ChNN -- you will become a sane human being, even without studying Abhidharma and so on.

Following Dzogchen teachings is the best mind training.

N