The brain and Dzogchen...

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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:08 am

@Username
I'm interested in the Dzogchen teachings and methods but not in a passive acceptance of orthodoxy. I'm more of a sutra style buddhist who basis his faith on definitive truth as found in the sutras and madhyamaka and I'm not about to create my own interpretation of Dzogchen that would be at odds with these core buddhist teachings. I see the guru as an embodiment of madhyamaka reasoning. I'm prepared to question relative truth. If ChNN says the brain is like an office then I don't have to accept it as a definitive truth. I can see it as a relative truth. If ChNN says the brain is appearance/emptiness inseparable then I would accept that as a definitive truth and proceed accordingly.
Dzogchen is being taught to thousands of students as a path in itself. Do you think it's not permissible for these students to question their conditioning? If so then you are thinking of Dzogchen in a cultish way. The thing that makes Dzogchen and Buddhism unique is that students can question and question and question. Or are you holding off questioning because you think there is a payoff in the future - that in the future you'll get something good back by just accepting?
As regards to Namdrol - he is very knowledgeable that's for sure but you want me to respect him. Why should I do that when I don't even know him? You defend and criticize but rarely put forward a view of your own. For you it's enough to accept. That passive way of accepting is not the Dzogchen that I'm enamored with.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby username » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:41 am

@(!)andrew108: He didn't just say the brain is the office as you misrepresent him but went into details over the last couple of years everytime he mentioned it. But you don't know what he talked about and merely make a one word caricature of him as you are unaware of even the basics but repeat concepts and quotes out of place in a muddled way. All the best on your novel breakthrough into the real state of your brain and on your own new lineage and I always enjoy reading your Dzogchen debates and your Dzogchen teachings.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:10 pm

username wrote:All the best on your novel breakthrough into the real state of your brain and on your own new lineage and I always enjoy reading your Dzogchen debates and your Dzogchen teachings.

I don't teach dzogchen - never will either. Neither will I have my 'own lineage' - wouldn't want that either. I don't think there is much use in me posting to the forum. I wouldn't want to mislead anyone. So begging your pardon I will leave without a fuss. Thanks.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Malcolm » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:31 pm

Andrew108 wrote: If ChNN says the brain is like an office then I don't have to accept it as a definitive truth. I can see it as a relative truth. If ChNN says the brain is appearance/emptiness inseparable then I would accept that as a definitive truth and proceed accordingly.


That reason why Norbu Rinpoche says this is because Dzogchen is predicated on an understanding of the human body that founded on medical ideas current in Tibet and India at that time.

In Dzogchen,the rtsal or energy of wisdom, ye shes, is specifically stated to be located in the brain. And the brain is specifically stated to be the organ that coordinates input from the five material sense organs. This is symbolized by the presence of the mandala of the 58 herukas in the brain, just as the eight consciousness are symbolized by the presence of the 42 peaceful deities in the heart.

Also, the two truths is not an important concept in Dzogchen, or as ChNN put it to me in person 19 years ago, "In Dzogchen there is only one truth, not two truths".

N
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby username » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:49 pm

Also apart from mentioning the wrathful deities centered in the brain he sometimes mentions the Skandhas in relation to the brain as well as the time bound nature of the sensory and cognitive inputs and management of them and memories. He says even if not thought of as memories, they are captured moment to moment like photographs and are still in time and very recent memory. He usually then goes into detail on one of these three aspects on different occasions. He always finishes by saying the real state though is beyond time, and such causality.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Acchantika » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:37 pm

username wrote:Firstly one does not misrepresent basic dzogchen teachings as his master's opinions that he is free to question. If someone is not a follower of Dzogchen then he is free to dismiss any dzogchen basic aspect or master he is not following. Secondly dzogchen is not madhyamaka abhidharma or vinaya to be debated as such, whether correctly or as often in this subforum incorrectly regarding mixing up the basics and then often giving advice and teachings to others with merely quoting conceptual ideas out of proper context. Thirdly the brain and body have specific explanations in Tantra and dzogchen as well as methods. As narraboth often says Namdrol is playing with you or more accurately being patient. However we are often taught to cut the root and the tree falls so no need to worry about the trunk and branches and once in the real state the path unfolds so no need to worry about the anatomy at this stage.

Finally this is all typical western way of forcing one's way through to the real nature by reducing all to mere concepts and now anatomy. Concepts are needed to start and continue with as is the precious rare human body which is in space and also the coarse mind which is in the 3 times but the truth is beyond. Reading such posts over the last month I often taught how it is true that vajrayana and mahamudra/semde suit most best and then Astus quoted a perfect passage in the mahamudra section. I would say to silent readers who are new to dzogchen generally we do not proliferate in dharma with personal untrained opinions and mixing up terms which have different and even sometimes opposing meanings in different yanas and not to be confused with so many contradictory opinions many of which are misleading and not to take all comments here as valid, including mine. Often reading conceptual proliferations backed by quotes out of context trying to force it's way through in experiential tantra/dzogchen dead-ends like a desperate blitzkrieg or systems analysis chart does more harm than good. This is not the way.


I very much appreciate your post, username.

I just want to add, for all you seasoned Dzogchenpa's out there, that people like me who are very new to the subject learn by asking questions and sometimes challenging things, not to promote some useless opinion but simply to be corrected and better understand things. For some, engaging with people of superior understanding and experience, not simply reading, is the only way they can change negative thought patterns. Please see it for what it is, sincere and positive. We all start somewhere. Peace.
...
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby username » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:13 pm

Hi Acchantika, thank you for your words. Speaking as a parroting beginner, not to mention closed minded cultish follower etc. as listed on top here, frankly if Namdrol was not posting the negatives might outweigh the positives of this subforum. I honestly do not know but on balance I think it is good to have a subforum on Dzogchen for us to ask Namdrol and senior practitioners instead of arguing (debating is fine) and I do not have this thread or Andrew108 or any particular member in mind either but speaking generally and the cumulative effect can wear down people. Like Dechen said long before I wonder why he bothers. Otherwise if this subforum was not here people will be dispersed. Look at visits to threads with no reply and seems like tens of visitors and if people respect his answers and limited time as the numbers grow more he can probably manage with such conditions. With some moderate self discipline in posting and some more respect from us hopefully other teachers might dare to join him too. Otherwise I don't see how, I could be wrong as usual but just my opinion.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby gnegirl » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:38 pm

:popcorn:

Hey look, new soap opera!
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby username » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:48 pm

gnegirl wrote::popcorn:

Hey look, new soap opera!


See, what's the point in that? Bye.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:27 pm

username wrote:
gnegirl wrote::popcorn:

Hey look, new soap opera!


See, what's the point in that? Bye.


She is indirectly criticizing your vitriol toward people, which can also be wearying.
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Heruka » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:24 am

i guess it is true that you can led a horse to water....

but you cannot make it drink.
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Heruka » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:27 am

im sorry, but they say that the higher the monkey climbs in the tree, the more his ass is exposed.

.............
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Sönam » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:04 pm

username wrote:if people respect his answers and limited time as the numbers grow more he can probably manage with such conditions. With some moderate self discipline in posting and some more respect from us hopefully other teachers might dare to join him too.


Yeaaap ! I never met Namdrol personnaly, and I'm not one of his student, but since now more than 8 years (wouaaaaaaaaaah time goes) he gave me more answers and confidence in Dharma and Dzogchen than any other teachers I met ... Much respect Namdrol-la.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby gnegirl » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:47 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
username wrote:
gnegirl wrote::popcorn:

Hey look, new soap opera!


See, what's the point in that? Bye.


She is indirectly criticizing your vitriol toward people, which can also be wearying.


I was? Are you certain, Padawan?
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby mzaur » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:07 am

Namdrol wrote:
Andrew108 wrote: If ChNN says the brain is like an office then I don't have to accept it as a definitive truth. I can see it as a relative truth. If ChNN says the brain is appearance/emptiness inseparable then I would accept that as a definitive truth and proceed accordingly.


That reason why Norbu Rinpoche says this is because Dzogchen is predicated on an understanding of the human body that founded on medical ideas current in Tibet and India at that time.

In Dzogchen,the rtsal or energy of wisdom, ye shes, is specifically stated to be located in the brain. And the brain is specifically stated to be the organ that coordinates input from the five material sense organs. This is symbolized by the presence of the mandala of the 58 herukas in the brain, just as the eight consciousness are symbolized by the presence of the 42 peaceful deities in the heart.


I am curious...if this is so, then maybe Dzogchen needs a reboot given current medical ideas? There have been several advances since then
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Malcolm » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:35 pm

mzaur wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Andrew108 wrote: If ChNN says the brain is like an office then I don't have to accept it as a definitive truth. I can see it as a relative truth. If ChNN says the brain is appearance/emptiness inseparable then I would accept that as a definitive truth and proceed accordingly.


That reason why Norbu Rinpoche says this is because Dzogchen is predicated on an understanding of the human body that founded on medical ideas current in Tibet and India at that time.

In Dzogchen,the rtsal or energy of wisdom, ye shes, is specifically stated to be located in the brain. And the brain is specifically stated to be the organ that coordinates input from the five material sense organs. This is symbolized by the presence of the mandala of the 58 herukas in the brain, just as the eight consciousness are symbolized by the presence of the 42 peaceful deities in the heart.


I am curious...if this is so, then maybe Dzogchen needs a reboot given current medical ideas? There have been several advances since then


No, not at all. For example, the visual cortext located in the brain is responsible for sight on a coarse level. If it is destroyed, you cannot see, even if you have perfectly healthy eyes. If your eyes are destroyed, you cannot see, even if your visual cortex is undamaged. But if even if your sight is impaired, or you have brain damage that blinds you, you will still have dreams in which you have sight. This proves that visual consciousness is not located in the brain, necessarily.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 01, 2012 5:55 pm

People who are blind at birth do not dream with images - they dream with sounds as long as they were not born deaf. Those that have lost their sight later on in life do dream with images but the images are blurred - not well defined at all.

As you know perception relies on the brain not just the sense organs. The 'images' are created in different parts of the brain and MRI scans show these images coming together not from one source or location, but from a variety of sources within the brain. It's very much a picture of dependent origination and in the sense that perception is 'drawn' in different parts of the brain it would be accurate to say that our 'drawn' or constructed perceptions are not existent as such nor do they have a fixed identity or fixed essence or location.

As to Dzogchen - well there is the concept 'Dzogchen' and that is brain-based - what we think we know about Dzogchen. But genuine dharma - genuine dzogchen - it's not a causal vehicle and so we can never 'see' it with the brain - we can never figure it out with the brain - genuine Dzogchen can't be 'drawn' by the brain as a result of analysis (unlike other vehicles). In that sense it escapes us - escapes being brain-based and could be said to be beyond the brain.

I started this topic and some of my previous posts contained inaccuracies. But I've had some time to practice and to reassess my previous comments.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 01, 2012 6:27 pm

Andrew108 wrote:People who are blind at birth do not dream with images - they dream with sounds as long as they were not born deaf. Those that have lost their sight later on in life do dream with images but the images are blurred - not well defined at all.



And you know this how?



As to Dzogchen - well there is the concept 'Dzogchen' and that is brain-based - what we think we know about Dzogchen. But genuine dharma - genuine dzogchen - it's not a causal vehicle and so we can never 'see' it with the brain - we can never figure it out with the brain - genuine Dzogchen can't be 'drawn' by the brain as a result of analysis (unlike other vehicles). In that sense it escapes us - escapes being brain-based and could be said to be beyond the brain.


In Dzogchen, the differentiation between mind and matter is considered a delusion, as is the differentiation between sentient and non-sentient. Consciousness is clearly defined in the ancient Dzogchen tantras, as well as seminal instructions such as the Khandro Nyinthig, as a physiological phenomena.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue May 01, 2012 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Andrew108 » Tue May 01, 2012 6:33 pm

Yes - so no mind/body dualism.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: The brain and Dzogchen...

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 01, 2012 6:45 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Yes - so no mind/body dualism.


Correct. This is an atavism of the nine yanas.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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