Tsa Lung

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Tsa Lung

Postby Virgo » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:49 am

What is the role of Tsa-lung in Dzogchen?

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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby Sönam » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:54 am

cannot answer to the question, but for those speaking french there is a new (only) book on the question by Lama Kunga :

Image

It is said in the introduction : The Kagyu and Shangpa tradition use the Zab Meun Nang Deun of the Third Karmapa, wich is equivalent to Nyingma's Tsa Lung

"Tsa Lung, in Tibetan, means channel and wind, it referes to a collection of traditional commentaries and psychophisiologics techniques based on the subtil constitution of individuals. Spreaded from India to Tibet. ... some may think that it is the Tibetan version of the Indian Yogi, but it is not, the yoga has Hinduism for origin, Tsa Lung is a pure Buddhist technique.

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby conebeckham » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:16 am

Zabmo Nangdon is a text by the Third Karmapa which deals with many Vajrayana Topics. This does include discussions of Tsa, Lung, and Tigle, but it's not a "practice manual," per se.

In terms of "practice," Shangpa and Dakpo Kagyupas have many practices that relate to Tsa, Lung, and Tigle...but the most well-known are the Tummo practices of Naropa's (and Niguma's) Six Dharmas/Yogas. There are also practices relating to Tsa, Lung, and Tigle in the Kalachakra systems, and in actuality the Zabmo Nangdon draws quite a bit of it's material from Kalachakra, though most of it is filtered through the experience and vision of Rangjung Dorje.

I'm going to guess that the purpose of these methods is similar in Nyingma and the Kagyu, Sakya, and other places where you find them. but I've not been exposed to particularly Nyingma presentations on these topics, so I can't say for certain....
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby padma norbu » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:23 am

I know that Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche has 5 exercises for TsaLung which he mentions briefly in Tibetan Sound Healing and I believe elaborates on in his newer book (the title is something like "Awakened Body," but I dont' recall off-hand; I just remember viewing the preview of the pages on Amazon and it appeared to me that the whole book was about TsaLung). I also think these exercises MIGHT be described in the Yantra Yoga book by Namkhai Norbu.

By the way, anyone know if the Yantra Yoga book is safe to do on your own? I have the book, but haven't found the time to do anything with it yet. I know the people at Khundrolling have told me you really need to take at least a weekend class to learn how to breathe and move correctly, but I don't recall if Yantra Yoga has any kind of caveat emptor in the begging like for example you see in translations of the Six Yogas of Naropa. Since Namkhai Norbu did not mention one aspect entirely (the dangerous one, I guess), I am presuming he presented the rest of the material in a way that was safe for the general public... otherwise it would be a restricted book. Right?
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby AilurusFulgens » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:33 pm

padma norbu wrote:Since Namkhai Norbu did not mention one aspect entirely (the dangerous one, I guess), I am presuming he presented the rest of the material in a way that was safe for the general public... otherwise it would be a restricted book. Right?


Sorry to jump in, but the above remark caught my eye, Padma Norbu, since I also recently bought the Yantra Yoga book.

May I ask, which aspect was not mentioned by Namkhai Norbu? What exactly did you have in mind?

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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby Pero » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:00 pm

padma norbu wrote:By the way, anyone know if the Yantra Yoga book is safe to do on your own?

It depends on who you are.

Since Namkhai Norbu did not mention one aspect entirely (the dangerous one, I guess),

I don't think anything was left out, since that is a complete translation and commentary on the root text. I think that if whatever you're thinking of is not in there, then it is not part of this version of Yantra Yoga.

I am presuming he presented the rest of the material in a way that was safe for the general public... otherwise it would be a restricted book. Right?

I don't think so. Just because something is in a public book does not mean it is necessarily safe to do for just anyone on his own.
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby padma norbu » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:07 pm

I was speaking about gtummo / tummo practice. This book is translations of 2/3 of Vairocana's texts. The third which is not covered in this book is about tummo practice, which is apparently somewhat dangerous to try to learn from a book. This is mentioned at the bottom of page 1 of Adriano's Foreward.
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby padma norbu » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:08 pm

Pero wrote:I don't think so. Just because something is in a public book does not mean it is necessarily safe to do for just anyone on his own.
I don't think Namkhai Norbu would publish a potentially dangerous book without any warning. If there is a warning somewhere, I don't remember it.
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby AilurusFulgens » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:14 pm

padma norbu wrote:I was speaking about gtummo / tummo practice. This book is translations of 2/3 of Vairocana's texts. The third which is not covered in this book is about tummo practice, which is apparently somewhat dangerous to try to learn from a book. This is mentioned at the bottom of page 1 of Adriano's Foreward.


Thank you for the reference. I will definitely take a look.

IMHO, it can be problematic to learn such practices just from a book. I think that a living teacher, who can teach you either in a small group or in an one-on-one setting is the ideal way.

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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby Virgo » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:21 pm

padma norbu wrote:I was speaking about gtummo / tummo practice. This book is translations of 2/3 of Vairocana's texts. The third which is not covered in this book is about tummo practice, which is apparently somewhat dangerous to try to learn from a book. This is mentioned at the bottom of page 1 of Adriano's Foreward.

Tummo can be dangerous if done forcefully. Anyone who has received pointing out instructions can do it, but you need to learn it formally from a teacher, or at least learn vase breathing formally and use the first excercise in the Gurus seventh level of mind training in the Precious Vase text, or do the Mandarava or or some other practice.

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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby padma norbu » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:23 pm

yeah, it's cool, I am really not interested in learning tummo, anyway. I don't have time to sit around all day holding my breath weirdly.
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby Virgo » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:34 pm

padma norbu wrote:yeah, it's cool, I am really not interested in learning tummo, anyway. I don't have time to sit around all day holding my breath weirdly.

Breath is life and it relates to the condition of your body, speech, and mind.
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby conebeckham » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:45 pm

Tummo is not sitting around all day holding your breath weirdly. :smile:
And you can't learn tsalung from a book, that's for sure. I'm not even sure if you can learn Yantra Yoga truly from a book--though I don't profess to know every system of such things.

In Kagyu traditions, (and, I think, in Sakya and Geluk as well) these practices are expressly for generating a state of mind relating to bliss, which is useful for recognizing Mind's Nature, Etc., and which can ultimately lead to the Nirmanakaya. That's the basic gist of it....Now, perhaps someone can comment on whether or not Nyingma traditions view such methods similarly.
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby Virgo » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:54 pm

conebeckham wrote:Now, perhaps someone can comment on whether or not Nyingma traditions view such methods similarly.

Hi Cone,

If I were a Nyingmapa I might know (but then again probably not). But anyway thanks a lot for all your input on this thread. Same to you Sonam, Pero, Padma, and everyone else too.

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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby Virgo » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:11 pm

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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby padma norbu » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:16 am

haha, don't you guys recognize obvious trolling when you see it? :tongue: I worded it that way just to get the reaction and I got it! :) I've seen tummo at work and know quite a bit about it. Not interested in doing it, however you want to describe it. I feel no desire to dry a wet towel wrapped around my near nude body as I sit in the snow, either. Especially several in a row to reach master status. :tongue:
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby Virgo » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:19 am

padma norbu wrote: I feel no desire to dry a wet towel wrapped around my near nude body as I sit in the snow, either. Especially several in a row to reach master status. :tongue:

You don't need to do all that crap.

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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby padma norbu » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:58 am

But, I want to! Er, wait, I just contradicted myself. ;)
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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby Virgo » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:00 am

padma norbu wrote:But, I want to! Er, wait, I just contradicted myself. ;)

You can if you want to, but it is basing your Buddhist practice on externals.

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Re: Tsa Lung

Postby padma norbu » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:04 am

I don't want to do any of that crap. I also don't want to sit around and hold my breath weirdly! :stirthepot: Please join me in another round of this nonsense! ;)
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