How do you know if you've recognized rigpa?

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

No duality to become free of in the first place.

Chögyäl Namkhai Norbu relates that once someone asked the famous Dzogchen Master, Yungtön Dorje Pel, what his practice consisted of, and he replied with the negative “mepa” or “there isn’t.”
Elias Capriles

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

I can't agree. The recognition is not always already there and must be recognized utilizing a method that must be taught.

IMHO the path in dzogchen is not "try to recognize", that is a path of renunciation or path of transformation path - the path in dzogchen is remaining without doubt, having received direct introduction.

You can play any semantics game you like, but the fact remains there's no recognition of any kind without first receiving the instructions and blessing of the lineage.

IMHO true from level of path of transformation but in path of spontaneous liberation refuge is considered from even higher standpoint and is called "secret refuge" and is not taken in the master, unlike path of transformation. Padmasambhava stated that the objects of secret refuge are tawa or Vision, gompa or Contemplation, and chöpa or Behavior. Secret refuge is thus really taken in rigpa itself which is no different from dharmakaya Samantabhadra.

[Acchantika]

Non-conceptual calm abiding (shamata) is different from 'uncontrived and free of duality.' It's the free of duality that is the difference.

There is no such thing as duality apart from concepts.

So, by definition, nonconceptual calm abiding cannot be dualistic. If it is, it isn't nonconceptual calm abiding.

Thus, abiding in a state that is uncontrived and free of duality is samatha, not rigpa.

Samatha by itself does not imply insight or recognition; this, I think, is Milarepa's point.

[deepbluehum]

IMHO the path in dzogchen is not "try to recognize", that is a path of renunciation or path of transformation path - the path in dzogchen is remaining without doubt, having received direct introduction.

You can play any semantics game you like, but the fact remains there's no recognition of any kind without first receiving the instructions and blessing of the lineage.

IMHO true from level of path of transformation but in path of spontaneous liberation refuge is considered from even higher standpoint and is called "secret refuge" and is not taken in the master, unlike path of transformation. Padmasambhava stated that the objects of secret refuge are tawa or Vision, gompa or Contemplation, and chöpa or Behavior. Secret refuge is thus really taken in rigpa itself which is no different from dharmakaya Samantabhadra.

lol this is teaching a method; where are you going with this?

[deepbluehum]

No duality to become free of in the first place.

Chögyäl Namkhai Norbu relates that once someone asked the famous Dzogchen Master, Yungtön Dorje Pel, what his practice consisted of, and he replied with the negative “mepa” or “there isn’t.”
Elias Capriles

Quotes like this are often taken out of context, because this quote refers to the practice of nonmeditation and no one will ever know what this means without instructions and blessings from the lineage. Your comments re paths of renunciation, transformation and self-liberation are innaposite.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

No duality to become free of in the first place.

Chögyäl Namkhai Norbu relates that once someone asked the famous Dzogchen Master, Yungtön Dorje Pel, what his practice consisted of, and he replied with the negative “mepa” or “there isn’t.”
Elias Capriles

Quotes like this are often taken out of context, because this quote refers to the practice of nonmeditation and no one will ever know what this means without instructions and blessings from the lineage. Your comments re paths of renunciation, transformation and self-liberation are innaposite.

No-one can "know" what non-meditation means by being "instructed" about it or via "blessings". This is the whole point of direct introduction - it can only be realized directly in that moment when my mind is united with my guru's mind. In transformation we still receive "instructions" and "blessings". Not in self-liberation. Are you saying that self-liberation is a causal path?

[Malcolm]

No duality to become free of in the first place.

Chögyäl Namkhai Norbu relates that once someone asked the famous Dzogchen Master, Yungtön Dorje Pel, what his practice consisted of, and he replied with the negative “mepa” or “there isn’t.”
Elias Capriles

Quotes like this are often taken out of context, because this quote refers to the practice of nonmeditation and no one will ever know what this means without instructions and blessings from the lineage. Your comments re paths of renunciation, transformation and self-liberation are innaposite.

No-one can "know" what non-meditation means by being "instructed" about it or via "blessings". This is the whole point of direct introduction - it can only be realized directly in that moment when my mind is united with my guru's mind. In transformation we still receive "instructions" and "blessings". Not in self-liberation. Are you saying that self-liberation is a causal path?

no, he is saying that a guru is a requirement.

N

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

lol this is teaching a method; where are you going with this?

Neither what I said nor secret refuge is a "method" since nothing in dzogchen is causal. The path in dzogchen is not based on causality, but on lhundrub, sponteneity. Rigpa sees that even the stains, confusions and obscurations of samsara were always katak, pure, and lhundrub, perfect, because nirvana and samsara are both of the nature of the Base and the Base always and forever has been katak and lhundrub.

[Andrew108]

Samatha by itself does not imply insight or recognition; this, I think, is Milarepa's point.

Absolutely. Yes agree. That is his point. Usually in this case it is said that someone trying to stop thoughts, who is disturbed by movements, is on the wrong path. It's the clinging to a non-conceptual state that makes it dualistic.
Abiding in a state that is uncontrived and free of duality, one would see the equality of movement/stillness and in that sense one would be 'in touch' with ones basic nature. This is quite different to Shamatha. Non dual aspect of awareness is an important part of rigpa's show.

[deepbluehum]

No duality to become free of in the first place.

Chögyäl Namkhai Norbu relates that once someone asked the famous Dzogchen Master, Yungtön Dorje Pel, what his practice consisted of, and he replied with the negative “mepa” or “there isn’t.”
Elias Capriles

Quotes like this are often taken out of context, because this quote refers to the practice of nonmeditation and no one will ever know what this means without instructions and blessings from the lineage. Your comments re paths of renunciation, transformation and self-liberation are innaposite.

No-one can "know" what non-meditation means by being "instructed" about it or via "blessings". This is the whole point of direct introduction - it can only be realized directly in that moment when my mind is united with my guru's mind. In transformation we still receive "instructions" and "blessings". Not in self-liberation. Are you saying that self-liberation is a causal path?

Blessings is uniting with the guru's mind. Direct introduction is the guru's special method. Once one practices for a long time then it becomes so effortless that it is like "knowing it like the back of your hand" and it seems like there's no practice. It's all pretty simple, but people like to wax mystical.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

no, he is saying that a guru is a requirement.

N

Yes, I'm just having some fun from katak side.

Nevertheless in the most genuine and profound sense "guru" in dzogchen is the practitioner's own tawa, or vision. The essential purpose of even the physical form of the vajracharya in dzogchen is to permit the practitioner to develop sufficient familiarity with their own tawa so that their own rigpa becomes "guru" - and do this furthermore as quickly as possible since time is short.

It is said that spontaneous liberation is self-responsibility - never putting ourselves totally under the authority of others.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Blessings is uniting with the guru's mind. Direct introduction is the guru's special method. Once one practices for a long time then it becomes so effortless that it is like "knowing it like the back of your hand" and it seems like there's no practice. It's all pretty simple, but people like to wax mystical.

To me to use "blessings" re: direct introduction is to wax mystical. And again I quibble with "method" because I think it's important to see that self-liberation is not causal - in direct introduction guru does not "cause" me to "recognize" anything because of an "instruction". I simply realize my mind always was, is, will be guru's mind. Why "always"? Because even in samsara confusion was, is, will be wisdom.

O Vajra Speech! I Samantabhadra, teach that ... there is not the slightest difference between a person whose body and language exhibit all the signs of understanding and one who has never cared even momentarily to listen or study the teaching or to think about it.
The Heap of Jewels, quoted in Dowman, 2010, p.86-87.

[heart]

?

Most Dzogchen practitioners would say that if you don't know you didn't get it. But most Dzogchenpas are pretty macho. My advice id if you get the possibility to have an interview with your Guru don't waste it complaining about your boyfriend but ask very directly from your own experience so you can clarify your doubts about the natural state. It is something very subtle and at the same time it is a great revelation, it is beyond and completely normal. It is really nothing you can ever brag about.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

lol this is teaching a method; where are you going with this?

Neither what I said nor secret refuge is a "method" since nothing in dzogchen is causal. The path in dzogchen is not based on causality, but on lhundrub, sponteneity. Rigpa sees that even the stains, confusions and obscurations of samsara were always katak, pure, and lhundrub, perfect, because nirvana and samsara are both of the nature of the Base and the Base always and forever has been katak and lhundrub.

No, this is actually not correct. In order for there to be samsara in the basis, there must be ignorance in the basis. But there isn't. This is why it is said that basis is originally pure [ka dag]. The Rosary of Pearls tantra states:

The mere term delusion cannot be described
within the original purity of the initial state,
likewise, how can there be non-delusion?
Therefore, pure of delusion from the beginning.

What you have presented above is a common mahamudra misunderstanding of what "basis" means in Dzogchen.

What you describe is the kun gzhi [ālaya] of the Mahāmudra teachings, not the "gzhi" (sthana) of Dogchen teachings.

[Acchantika]

Samatha by itself does not imply insight or recognition; this, I think, is Milarepa's point.

Absolutely. Yes agree. That is his point. Usually in this case it is said that someone trying to stop thoughts, who is disturbed by movements, is on the wrong path. It's the clinging to a non-conceptual state that makes it dualistic.
Abiding in a state that is uncontrived and free of duality, one would see the equality of movement/stillness and in that sense one would be 'in touch' with ones basic nature. This is quite different to Shamatha. Non dual aspect of awareness is an important part of rigpa's show.

We don't disagree. I likely just confused things by using the term in its Mahamudra context. In that context, there is a distinction between the abiding, samatha, and the insight, vipassana. But the distinction is theoretical, not practical. It only exists for novice. The beginning (so to speak) of true samatha and the beginning of true vipassana are not two separate events.

[deepbluehum]

no, he is saying that a guru is a requirement.

N

Yes, I'm just having some fun from katak side.

Nevertheless in the most genuine and profound sense "guru" in dzogchen is the practitioner's own tawa, or vision. The essential purpose of even the physical form of the vajracharya in dzogchen is to permit the practitioner to develop sufficient familiarity with their own tawa so that their own rigpa becomes "guru" - and do this furthermore as quickly as possible since time is short.

It is said that spontaneous liberation is self-responsibility - never putting ourselves totally under the authority of others.

No need to play games or to preach to the choir.

[deepbluehum]

lol this is teaching a method; where are you going with this?

Neither what I said nor secret refuge is a "method" since nothing in dzogchen is causal. The path in dzogchen is not based on causality, but on lhundrub, sponteneity.

Honestly, this bit is only semantics. The presentation about "secret refuge" is a method of teaching to understand the nature of mind. I never said Dzogchen is based on causality. Kadak and Lhundub are basic Dzogchen terms, but they are easily misunderstood terms, as is what Dzogchen means by the path of cause and effect and the path beyond cause and effect.

New Dzogchenpas frequently misinterpret Dzogchen to be a kind of a path to fit with the misguided aspiration to become a Prateykabuddha, where he thinks he possesses pre-existing knowledge of Dzogchen with nothing to learn and nothing to practice, where everything is self-evident and can be learned in a distance learning program. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The path of Thogal is not easy and it is not a matter of doing nothing. The use of clever truisms will only make that path that much harder hear, and that much harder to fructify.

Really, unless someone has brought at least the second, but better yet the third vision into their stream of being, then they do not have a working basis to teach Dzogchen. There might be literally less than a single handful of yogis with this experience. Dzogchen is very artful and precise in its use of terms and they are geared toward Thogal. I don't feel it is appropriate to play around with these terms. I won't be participating with you in your effort to show off what you have learned. I realize you are sort of quizzing yourself against the forum. That's fine. But, to really get in depth into what you don't understand will require me to get into areas that I've been asked not to disclose.

Certain Western translators have kind of poisoned the well. You should be aware of that.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Neither what I said nor secret refuge is a "method" since nothing in dzogchen is causal. The path in dzogchen is not based on causality, but on lhundrub, sponteneity. Rigpa sees that even the stains, confusions and obscurations of samsara were always katak, pure, and lhundrub, perfect, because nirvana and samsara are both of the nature of the Base and the Base always and forever has been katak and lhundrub.

No, this is actually not correct. In order for there to be samsara in the basis, there must be ignorance in the basis. But there isn't. This is why it is said that basis is originally pure [ka dag]. The Rosary of Pearls tantra states:

The mere term delusion cannot be described
within the original purity of the initial state,
likewise, how can there be non-delusion?
Therefore, pure of delusion from the beginning.

What you have presented above is a common mahamudra misunderstanding of what "basis" means in Dzogchen.

What you describe is the kun gzhi [ālaya] of the Mahāmudra teachings, not the "gzhi" (sthana) of Dogchen teachings.

Unfortunately I know nothing about mahamudra. Ok, now: what I am understanding from this is that I can't say that nirvana and samsara are in the base since the base is empty of both wisdom and confusion from the start - is that more or less correct?

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Honestly ...

OK. All good points. We're cool.

[deepbluehum]

To me to use "blessings" re: direct introduction is to wax mystical.

Again, you misunderstand the meaning the term blessings and how it is used in this context.