Ka Dag Chen Po

[Virgo]

Hi,

I was wondering if the state of Ka dag chen po is realized by those who attain enlightenment (via Dzogchen) at the time of death in the sidpai bardo, or just by those that attain that attain jalu, the body of light.

Thank you,

Kevin

[Yontan]

Where did you hear the term "ka dag chen po" and what does it (and realizing it) mean to you?

[Virgo]

Where did you hear the term "ka dag chen po"

Namdrol

[Yontan]

Where did you hear the term "ka dag chen po" and what does it (and realizing it) mean to you?

Namdrol

One out of two... not bad, but could be better.

[Sönam]

Where did you hear the term "ka dag chen po" and what does it (and realizing it) mean to you?

Namdrol

One out of two... not bad, but could be better.

... Great Kadag

[Andrew108]

It's not 'Kadagchenpo' realization that is enlightenment. It is the union (Yerme) of Kadag/lhundrunb that is enlightenment. Basically what this means is that in Dzogchen, Kadag is empty of defining characteristics but it is not empty of spontaneous presence. So this is the realization in Dzogchen. Whether a practitioner realizes this in this life as 'great transference' i.e Guru Rinpoche or at death as rainbow body or during the bardo, then it's not just kadag on it's own that is realized.

[Malcolm]

The Rig pa rang shar tantra states:

"Child of a good family, at the time of nirvana when wisdom moves in the sky from the appearance of wisdom rising up from the basis having slipped from grasp of the body,vidyā moves in the sky traveling through the pathway of the eye. Furthermore, it should be understood in the following way: the vidyā from the heart dissolves into a thigle. The thigle dissolves into a lamp. The lamp dissolves into light. The light dissolve into a form. The form dissolves into a cluster. The cluster dissolves into wisdom. Wisdom dissolves into natural formation (lhun grub). After natural formation dissolves into great original purity, the stages are complete. The appearance of the manner of dissolution and the manner of liberation of those persons who have seen the truth is just like that."

The Great Tantra of Beatiful Good Fortune states:

Since the reality of vidyā and dharmatā
exist like the surface of a mirror,
never being obscured by the condition of ignorance (avidyā)
is called "great original purity".

[Pero]

The Rig pa rang shar tantra states:

"Child of a good family, at the time of nirvana when wisdom moves in the sky from the appearance of wisdom rising up from the basis having slipped from grasp of the body,vidyā moves in the sky traveling through the pathway of the eye. Furthermore, it should be understood in the following way: the vidyā from the heart dissolves into a thigle. The thigle dissolves into a lamp. The lamp dissolves into light. The light dissolve into a form. The form dissolves into a cluster. The cluster dissolves into wisdom. Wisdom dissolves into natural formation (lhun grub). After natural formation dissolves into great original purity, the stages are complete. The appearance of the manner of dissolution and the manner of liberation of those persons who have seen the truth is just like that."

The Great Tantra of Beatiful Good Fortune states:

Since the reality of vidyā and dharmatā
exist like the surface of a mirror,
never being obscured by the condition of ignorance (avidyā)
is called "great original purity".

Thanks! However does this mean that Kadag Chenpo is attained only by completing the four visions? Because the first thing I thought when I saw "Kadag Chenpo" was that it might be a term for what the complete realization of trekcho (the dissolving of the body into atoms).

[Malcolm]

...does this mean that Kadag Chenpo is attained only by completing the four visions?

Correct.

[Pero]

Is there a difference with realization in dissolving into atoms? If one achieves the latter, is one a Buddha on the 16th bhumi as well? Or 13th at least?

[Malcolm]

Is there a difference with realization in dissolving into atoms? If one achieves the latter, is one a Buddha on the 16th bhumi as well? Or 13th at least?

Yes, there is a difference in realization. Someone who has this realization will return as a tulku. A Buddha of the sixteenth bhumi will not. Or so it is said.

N

[Pero]

Is there a difference with realization in dissolving into atoms? If one achieves the latter, is one a Buddha on the 16th bhumi as well? Or 13th at least?

Yes, there is a difference in realization. Someone who has this realization will return as a tulku. A Buddha of the sixteenth bhumi will not. Or so it is said.

But doesn't that mean that one can't get totally realized through trekcho alone? And consequentially one can't get totally realized through any of the other inner tantras since their completion stage is basically trekcho too?

[Virgo]

Where did you hear the term "ka dag chen po" and what does it (and realizing it) mean to you?

Namdrol

One out of two... not bad, but could be better.

It really doesn't matter what it means to me. What matters is what it means itself.

Kevin

[Pero]

Yes, there is a difference in realization. Someone who has this realization will return as a tulku. A Buddha of the sixteenth bhumi will not. Or so it is said.

But doesn't that mean that one can't get totally realized through trekcho alone? And consequentially one can't get totally realized through any of the other inner tantras since their completion stage is basically trekcho too?

?

[Malcolm]

Is there a difference with realization in dissolving into atoms? If one achieves the latter, is one a Buddha on the 16th bhumi as well? Or 13th at least?

Yes, there is a difference in realization. Someone who has this realization will return as a tulku. A Buddha of the sixteenth bhumi will not. Or so it is said.

But doesn't that mean that one can't get totally realized through trekcho alone? And consequentially one can't get totally realized through any of the other inner tantras since their completion stage is basically trekcho too?

The completion stages in the sarma tantras is not confined to tregchö.

N

[Kai]

...does this mean that Kadag Chenpo is attained only by completing the four visions?

Correct.

Longchenpa seem to disagree:

The cessation of the elements at the time of perfection of the attainment of the meaning of the primordial purity (Kadag) through the training of Trekchod and the exhaustion of the elements by perfecting the spontaneous accomplishment through the training of thogal are similar in just having purified the internal and external gross elements. But in Trekchod, at the very instant of dissolving the partless particles, one attains liberation in the primordial purity (Kadag) and there is no manifestation of light body. In Thogal, with the attainment of light body one accomplishes the Body of Great Transformation. So their difference lies in whether or not they have the light body and not in the attainment of liberation in the state of primordial purity (Kadag)

I don't think Longchenpa is being politically correct over here and in His text, Kadag is generally referring to the basis (Gzhi), itself rather than the universal ground (Kunzhi). Also the Body of light, although impressive, is not a "must have" for all Buddhist practitioners.

[Malcolm]

Longchenpa seem to disagree:

There is a difference between ka dag and ka dag chen po.

[Kai]

Longchenpa seem to disagree:

There is a difference between ka dag and ka dag chen po.

Just to ask, for sake of verification, what is the verse from the tantra that specifically state the actual difference?

[Malcolm]

Longchenpa seem to disagree:

There is a difference between ka dag and ka dag chen po.

Just to ask, for sake of verification, what is the verse from the tantra that specifically state the actual difference?

See above.

N

[Kai]

Just to ask, for sake of verification, what is the verse from the tantra that specifically state the actual difference?

See above.

N

You mean the above quotations from Rigpa Rangshar tantra? But unless you imply wisdom = kadag inside that verse, I can't find what I was looking for......