Ka Dag Chen Po

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Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Virgo » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:14 am

Hi,

I was wondering if the state of Ka dag chen po is realized by those who attain enlightenment (via Dzogchen) at the time of death in the sidpai bardo, or just by those that attain that attain jalu, the body of light.

Thank you,

Kevin
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Yontan » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:23 am

Where did you hear the term "ka dag chen po" and what does it (and realizing it) mean to you?
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Virgo » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:46 am

Yontan wrote:Where did you hear the term "ka dag chen po"

Namdrol
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Yontan » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:54 am

Virgo wrote:
Yontan wrote:Where did you hear the term "ka dag chen po" and what does it (and realizing it) mean to you?

Namdrol


One out of two... not bad, but could be better.
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Sönam » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:46 am

Yontan wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Yontan wrote:Where did you hear the term "ka dag chen po" and what does it (and realizing it) mean to you?

Namdrol


One out of two... not bad, but could be better.


... Great Kadag
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:03 am

It's not 'Kadagchenpo' realization that is enlightenment. It is the union (Yerme) of Kadag/lhundrunb that is enlightenment. Basically what this means is that in Dzogchen, Kadag is empty of defining characteristics but it is not empty of spontaneous presence. So this is the realization in Dzogchen. Whether a practitioner realizes this in this life as 'great transference' i.e Guru Rinpoche or at death as rainbow body or during the bardo, then it's not just kadag on it's own that is realized.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:37 pm

The Rig pa rang shar tantra states:

    "Child of a good family, at the time of nirvana when wisdom moves in the sky from the appearance of wisdom rising up from the basis having slipped from grasp of the body,vidyā moves in the sky traveling through the pathway of the eye. Furthermore, it should be understood in the following way: the vidyā from the heart dissolves into a thigle. The thigle dissolves into a lamp. The lamp dissolves into light. The light dissolve into a form. The form dissolves into a cluster. The cluster dissolves into wisdom. Wisdom dissolves into natural formation (lhun grub). After natural formation dissolves into great original purity, the stages are complete. The appearance of the manner of dissolution and the manner of liberation of those persons who have seen the truth is just like that."


The Great Tantra of Beatiful Good Fortune states:

    Since the reality of vidyā and dharmatā
    exist like the surface of a mirror,
    never being obscured by the condition of ignorance (avidyā)
    is called "great original purity".
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Pero » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:14 pm

Namdrol wrote:The Rig pa rang shar tantra states:

    "Child of a good family, at the time of nirvana when wisdom moves in the sky from the appearance of wisdom rising up from the basis having slipped from grasp of the body,vidyā moves in the sky traveling through the pathway of the eye. Furthermore, it should be understood in the following way: the vidyā from the heart dissolves into a thigle. The thigle dissolves into a lamp. The lamp dissolves into light. The light dissolve into a form. The form dissolves into a cluster. The cluster dissolves into wisdom. Wisdom dissolves into natural formation (lhun grub). After natural formation dissolves into great original purity, the stages are complete. The appearance of the manner of dissolution and the manner of liberation of those persons who have seen the truth is just like that."


The Great Tantra of Beatiful Good Fortune states:

    Since the reality of vidyā and dharmatā
    exist like the surface of a mirror,
    never being obscured by the condition of ignorance (avidyā)
    is called "great original purity".


Thanks! However does this mean that Kadag Chenpo is attained only by completing the four visions? Because the first thing I thought when I saw "Kadag Chenpo" was that it might be a term for what the complete realization of trekcho (the dissolving of the body into atoms).
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:16 pm

Pero wrote:...does this mean that Kadag Chenpo is attained only by completing the four visions?


Correct.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Pero » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:15 pm

Is there a difference with realization in dissolving into atoms? If one achieves the latter, is one a Buddha on the 16th bhumi as well? Or 13th at least?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:18 pm

Pero wrote:Is there a difference with realization in dissolving into atoms? If one achieves the latter, is one a Buddha on the 16th bhumi as well? Or 13th at least?



Yes, there is a difference in realization. Someone who has this realization will return as a tulku. A Buddha of the sixteenth bhumi will not. Or so it is said.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Pero » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:Is there a difference with realization in dissolving into atoms? If one achieves the latter, is one a Buddha on the 16th bhumi as well? Or 13th at least?


Yes, there is a difference in realization. Someone who has this realization will return as a tulku. A Buddha of the sixteenth bhumi will not. Or so it is said.

But doesn't that mean that one can't get totally realized through trekcho alone? And consequentially one can't get totally realized through any of the other inner tantras since their completion stage is basically trekcho too?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Virgo » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:49 pm

Yontan wrote:
Virgo wrote:
Yontan wrote:Where did you hear the term "ka dag chen po" and what does it (and realizing it) mean to you?

Namdrol


One out of two... not bad, but could be better.

It really doesn't matter what it means to me. What matters is what it means itself.

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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Pero » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:17 pm

Pero wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Yes, there is a difference in realization. Someone who has this realization will return as a tulku. A Buddha of the sixteenth bhumi will not. Or so it is said.

But doesn't that mean that one can't get totally realized through trekcho alone? And consequentially one can't get totally realized through any of the other inner tantras since their completion stage is basically trekcho too?

? :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:50 am

Pero wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:Is there a difference with realization in dissolving into atoms? If one achieves the latter, is one a Buddha on the 16th bhumi as well? Or 13th at least?


Yes, there is a difference in realization. Someone who has this realization will return as a tulku. A Buddha of the sixteenth bhumi will not. Or so it is said.

But doesn't that mean that one can't get totally realized through trekcho alone? And consequentially one can't get totally realized through any of the other inner tantras since their completion stage is basically trekcho too?



The completion stages in the sarma tantras is not confined to tregchö.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Kai » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:22 am

Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:...does this mean that Kadag Chenpo is attained only by completing the four visions?


Correct.


Longchenpa seem to disagree:

The cessation of the elements at the time of perfection of the attainment of the meaning of the primordial purity (Kadag) through the training of Trekchod and the exhaustion of the elements by perfecting the spontaneous accomplishment through the training of thogal are similar in just having purified the internal and external gross elements. But in Trekchod, at the very instant of dissolving the partless particles, one attains liberation in the primordial purity (Kadag) and there is no manifestation of light body. In Thogal, with the attainment of light body one accomplishes the Body of Great Transformation. So their difference lies in whether or not they have the light body and not in the attainment of liberation in the state of primordial purity (Kadag)


I don't think Longchenpa is being politically correct over here and in His text, Kadag is generally referring to the basis (Gzhi), itself rather than the universal ground (Kunzhi). Also the Body of light, although impressive, is not a "must have" for all Buddhist practitioners.
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Malcolm » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:13 pm

Kai wrote:Longchenpa seem to disagree:


There is a difference between ka dag and ka dag chen po.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Kai » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:17 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Kai wrote:Longchenpa seem to disagree:


There is a difference between ka dag and ka dag chen po.


Just to ask, for sake of verification, what is the verse from the tantra that specifically state the actual difference?
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:54 pm

Kai wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Kai wrote:Longchenpa seem to disagree:


There is a difference between ka dag and ka dag chen po.


Just to ask, for sake of verification, what is the verse from the tantra that specifically state the actual difference?


See above.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Ka Dag Chen Po

Postby Kai » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:43 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Kai wrote:
Just to ask, for sake of verification, what is the verse from the tantra that specifically state the actual difference?


See above.

N


You mean the above quotations from Rigpa Rangshar tantra? But unless you imply wisdom = kadag inside that verse, I can't find what I was looking for......
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