Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

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alwayson
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by alwayson »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: You can pray to all the buddhas, bodhisattvas, and all ....

I'm not going to pray to mere conceptual labels designated upon bundles of dependently originated aggregates.

Buddhas are supposed to know every thought in the universe anyway through their omniscience.

Why not respond to my PM and help me out?
deepbluehum
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by deepbluehum »

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
alwayson wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:If you make sincere prayers to meet teachers and receive empowerments, then you surely will.
Serious question, what would a Buddhist pray too (for any purpose)?

One's own Wisdom?

And if thats the case, maybe better to do verbal affirmations in a "nondual" sense.
You can pray to all the buddhas, bodhisattvas, and all the vidyadharas of secret mantra and Dzogchen that they bestow upon you the guidance and teachings necessary to help you awaken and benefit all beings. Remember, while these enlightened beings are empty of truly existing (just like you and I), they are not absolutely non-existent. They are empty yet clearly appearing, and while on the path they made countless aspirations to benefit beings in whatever way they need help, and your prayers combined with your generation of positive causes activate their compassionate activity on your behalf. Or you can think of it as you opening yourself up to their sun ray-like universal enlightened activity and becoming receptive to it.

In addition, you can make aspirational prayers which are basically not praying to anyone/anything but simply affirmations of your aspirations and wishes, i.e. to meet with a qualified guide and authentic teachings, as well as conducive circumstances, through which you can become awakened for the sake of all beings.
Excellent answers, stated very eloquently.
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by deepbluehum »

alwayson wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote: You can pray to all the buddhas, bodhisattvas, and all ....

I'm not going to pray to mere conceptual labels designated upon bundles of dependently originated aggregates.

Buddhas are supposed to know every thought in the universe anyway through their omniscience.

Why not respond to my PM and help me out?
A buddha like Vajradhara does not have dependently originated aggregates. A guru whose mind is Vajradhara is not a bundle of aggregates either. The dharmaphalas, who are the one's who create circumstances do not have dependently generated aggregates. Rainbow body masters, etc., etc. The nature of mind does not have essential existence, but it is not dependently originated. You can't think your way out of the box you've encased yourself in. These are sound advices from people with experience. I sense much fear in you... Maybe it's better you don't join the path Anakin. I don't think he's the one prophesied to bring balance to the dharma despite his high level of metachlorians.
alwayson
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by alwayson »

deepbluehum wrote: A buddha like Vajradhara does not have dependently originated aggregates. A guru whose mind is Vajradhara is not a bundle of aggregates either.

This is wrong.

A Sambhogakāya is still made of the aggregates, but it is infinite due to infinite aspiration to help infinite sentient beings.

Don't lecture someone on Buddhism, when you don't understand basics.
alwayson
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by alwayson »

Dzogchen view may be something else, but that is only something maybe Norbu, Namdak, Namdrol etc. may comment on.
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by alwayson »

deepbluehum wrote: The nature of mind does not have essential existence, but it is not dependently originated.

Contradiction?
Namdrol wrote: This clarity is also dependently originated since the mind is dependently originated.

N
alwayson
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by alwayson »

deepbluehum wrote: The nature of mind does not have essential existence, but it is not dependently originated.

lack of essential existence = dependently originated

No wonder no Western Vajrayana practitioner attains Buddhahood, except the guy mentioned by Sogyal Rinpoche.
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by deepbluehum »

alwayson wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: A buddha like Vajradhara does not have dependently originated aggregates. A guru whose mind is Vajradhara is not a bundle of aggregates either.

This is wrong.

A Sambhogakāya is still made of the aggregates, but it is infinite due to infinite aspiration to help infinite sentient beings.

Don't lecture someone on Buddhism, when you don't understand basics.
Oh really? Well I guess I don't know who I'm talking to. My apologies. Please excuse me. I was under the impression the three kayas are inseparable from the dharmakaya which is beyond elaboration. I must be misinformed.
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by deepbluehum »

alwayson wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: The nature of mind does not have essential existence, but it is not dependently originated.

Contradiction?
Namdrol wrote: This clarity is also dependently originated since the mind is dependently originated.

N
Sems is dependently originated in the DC account. Rigpa is not. Nature of mind is rigpa or dharmakaya. So no there's no contradiction. DO also doesn't have intrinsic existence. So how could it have nonexistence? Tsongkhapa does a good job of explaining this.
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by Sönam »

alwayson wrote: A Sambhogakāya is still made of the aggregates,
Honestly I'm surprize ... and ignorant, can you elaborate, it will help me a lot, thank you

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
deepbluehum
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by deepbluehum »

alwayson wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: The nature of mind does not have essential existence, but it is not dependently originated.

lack of essential existence = dependently originated

No wonder no Western Vajrayana practitioner attains Buddhahood, except the guy mentioned by Sogyal Rinpoche.
The exalted awareness of a Buddha, i.e., nirvana, is not dependently originated. Your formulation is overly simplistic, reifies DO and lack of intrisic existence, misses the meaning of "intrinsic," and thereby falls into the extremes of nihilism, and both exists and does not exist. Obviously I will defer to you great Madhyamakan. Please elucidate my error.
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by deepbluehum »

Sönam wrote:
alwayson wrote: A Sambhogakāya is still made of the aggregates,
Honestly I'm surprize ... and ignorant, can you elaborate, it will help me a lot, thank you

Sönam
He is referring to the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. There the term aggregates is used euphemistically for the pure, bliss, eternal, self of the tathagatagarbha, and these terms are in fact euphemisms for freedom from extremes, nirvana. So his contention that the sambhoga has aggregates is misled.
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by deepbluehum »

alwayson wrote:Dzogchen view may be something else, but that is only something maybe Norbu, Namdak, Namdrol etc. may comment on.
I'll give it a shot anyway since apparently anyone gets to speak here. The five colors are wisdom lights, not aggregates. The aggregates are impure and are liberated into the primordial purity of the Sambhoga. Perhaps Vimalamitra will log on and back you up.
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

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deepbluehum wrote: He is referring to the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. There the term aggregates is used euphemistically for the pure, bliss, eternal, self of the tathagatagarbha, and these terms are in fact euphemisms for freedom from extremes, nirvana. So his contention that the sambhoga has aggregates is misled.

No way.

I am following basic Mahayana Buddhism and Madhyamaka.

I hate Budda Nature sutras with a passion.
alwayson
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by alwayson »

deepbluehum wrote:Obviously I will defer to you great Madhyamakan. Please elucidate my error.

------->EVERYTHING is dependently originated (i.e. empty)<-----------

This is not rocket science dude.



P.S. Tsongkhapa / Gelug view is not that great
Read second paragraph:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Kelwin
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

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alwayson wrote:I hate Budda Nature sutras with a passion.
Hate, leads to suffering...
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
alwayson
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by alwayson »

Kelwin wrote:
alwayson wrote:I hate Budda Nature sutras with a passion.
Hate, leads to suffering...

I'm just trying to make a point.

Context Yoda.
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Kelwin
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by Kelwin »

alwayson wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
alwayson wrote:I hate Budda Nature sutras with a passion.
Hate, leads to suffering...

I'm just trying to make a point.

Context dude.
Yup, and I think it's where some of the confusion comes from. Because if you don't want to know anything about the nature of mind, you will not understand any statements about it not being interdependent. And yes, everything is interdependent. And no, that is not a contradiction.
You got some beautiful answers here, by some very knowledgeable and patient people. For that reason, I'm actually happy you asked some of these questions.
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by heart »

alwayson wrote: A Sambhogakāya is still made of the aggregates, but it is infinite due to infinite aspiration to help infinite sentient beings.
Buddhas are made of sentient beings that doesn't mean that Buddhas are sentient beings.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Post by deepbluehum »

alwayson wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: He is referring to the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. There the term aggregates is used euphemistically for the pure, bliss, eternal, self of the tathagatagarbha, and these terms are in fact euphemisms for freedom from extremes, nirvana. So his contention that the sambhoga has aggregates is misled.

No way.

I am following basic Mahayana Buddhism and Madhyamaka.
Nagarjuna's and disciples' reasoning is not that dependent origination is emptiness. It is that those who see dependent origination see emptiness and vice versa. He doesn't create a tautological syllogism from it. That would be reifying an existent and a nonexistent, i.e., emptiness is dependent origination. Arya Nagarjuna does neither.

You still haven't arrived at how Madhyamaka says the Sambhogas are dependently originated, because if they were, then they'd be grasping at ignorance.
I hate Budda Nature sutras with a passion.
They are very useful. But one must understand what they are saying, i.e., from Nagarjuna's In Praise of Dharmadhatu.
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