Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

[deepbluehum]

Obviously I will defer to you great Madhyamakan. Please elucidate my error.

------->EVERYTHING is dependently originated (i.e. empty)<-----------

If nirvana were dependently originated, then it would be composite and conditioned. Nirvana is precisely nonarising conditioned existence. Buddhas have attained nirvana. Buddhas have put an end to conditioned existence.

This is not rocket science dude.

I'm beginning to see why Indians switched to Hinduism. Just kiddin'. I'm just ribbing you.

P.S. Tsongkhapa / Gelug view is not that great
Read second paragraph:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm assuming you wrote the Wikipedia?

Tsongkhapa does a good job is all I said. He does a good job of illustrating what Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti and Buddhapalita said on the subject. None of them said dependent origination is emptiness. Why? Because then you would be asserting the nonexistence of causation. Hence, why you think an act of prayer to the Buddhas would be fruitless.

[alwayson]

YES BUDDHAS ARE PERMANENT.

But ONLY because Sambhogakāyas are fueled by infinite compassion.

They are still dependently originated (i.e. empty).

[deepbluehum]

YES BUDDHAS ARE PERMANENT.

But ONLY because Sambhogakāyas are fueled by infinite compassion.

They are still dependently originated (i.e. empty).

Is that supposed to mean your prayers would prove fruitless? If you are negating cause and effect, then your view is nihilistic.

[alwayson]

Is that supposed to mean your prayers would prove fruitless?

http://www.snowlionpub.com/pages/N91_3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In the ultimate sense, there is no object that is being prayed to—there is no separation between the object being prayed to and the person praying."

[alwayson]

If you are negating cause and effect, then your view is nihilistic.

How am I negating cause and effect?

Thats the pot calling the kettle black.

[deepbluehum]

Is that supposed to mean your prayers would prove fruitless?

http://www.snowlionpub.com/pages/N91_3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In the ultimate sense, there is no object that is being prayed to—there is no separation between the object being prayed to and the person praying."

Do you think this means your prayers would prove fruitless? Yes or no.

[alwayson]

I have no problem praying in a "nondual" sense.

Like I said in the beginning.

[deepbluehum]

If you are negating cause and effect, then your view is nihilistic.

How am I negating cause and effect?

Thats the pot calling the kettle black.

The black pot is saying prayers and offerings to buddhas has an effect, infinite merit.

[deepbluehum]

I have no problem praying in a "nondual" sense.

This has no sense, because nonduality is the view of a noble arya, not an aspiring yogi.

My take is that your refusal to answer whether your prayers would prove fruitless is because you are harboring a view of nihilism that appears to be invisible even to you.

You might be veering off into the situation of incurability, because you conceptualize emptiness.

I recommend you give up all this intellectual pursuit until you find a teacher. Your view will not get fixed unless you do.

but what do I know I'm just a dumb pig and my teacher is just a dumb yak.

[alwayson]

I follow the same view of prayer as in this article:

http://www.snowlionpub.com/pages/N91_3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[alwayson]

I recommend you give up all this intellectual pursuit until you find a teacher. Your view will not get fixed unless you do.

You can be a Mahayana buddhist without a teacher.


P.S. MY view is incorrect??

I assume you are a Vajrayana practitioner. Vajrayana is supposed to be based on Madhyamaka view LOL

[alwayson]

Start reading from page 52

http://books.google.com/books?id=l21zNN ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Alwayson dbh gives good advice and his teacher whoever it is is obviously giving him wonderful teachings and is far from being a dumb yak to produce someone who serves his lineage well like that. Until you find your heart teacher you are just an appliance unconnected to the electricity grid. You must eventually accept this or you're going to just keep going round in circles chasing your own tail. I cannot begin to describe my good fortune in meeting my precious guru. Without him I would literally be completely lost spiritually. The more teachings I receive from him the more awestruck I am and the more I prostrate at his feet.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Alwayson the madhyamaka view is certainly important but the fundamentals of vajrayana is the guru. Without that, your results will be nil.

[alwayson]

Alwayson the madhyamaka view is certainly important but the fundamentals of vajrayana is the guru. Without that, your results will be nil.

Don't discuss me.

Discuss the subjects at hand.

I've probably been studying Buddhism seriously longer than most of you have been Vajrayana practitioners.

Once you become a Vajrayana practitioner, all your personal wrong views become sacrosant????

Is that the logic here?

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

You mentioned you didn't have to have a teacher, not me. And you're in the dzogchen forum. So for me the subject at hand is the one you brought up. And I'm just mentioning to you that you can spout madhyamaka all you like. But without a teacher to make it real for you it's all just blablabla.

[alwayson]

You mentioned you didn't have to have a teacher, not me. And you're in the dzogchen forum. So for me the subject at hand is the one you brought up. And I'm just mentioning to you that you can spout madhyamaka all you like. But without a teacher to make it real for you it's all just blablabla.

Well I PM'ed Pema, asking for some help in this area, but he blew me off.

Some of you guys are not really helpful, except saying pray for a teacher LOL

Yes I am aware of Norbu's web transmission. I should do that one day.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Oh well I can heartily recommend my own teacher Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, and his organization, Dzogchen Community. Others I'm sure will have their own recommended teachers. For myself as I say I am incredibly fortunate to have connected with this teacher in this way. His teachings have changed my life.

[Malcolm]

None of them said dependent origination is emptiness.

?

That which is dependent origination
is explained to be emptiness.
-- Mulamadhyamakakarikas.

[Virgo]

Yes I am aware of Norbu's web transmission. I should do that one day.

The problem is I don't think you understand the two heaps of merit and wisdom. You can have a good intellectual grasp of emptiness all day long, for a very, very long time and not attain any stages.

Kevin