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 Post subject: Awareness.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:17 pm 
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awareness of emptiness. emptiness is awareness. awareness is emptiness. not two. not one. no need to see this. just aware.

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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:09 pm 
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Just words....but good luck with that..

Is where everyone starts

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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:44 am 
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White Lotus wrote:
awareness of emptiness. emptiness is awareness. awareness is emptiness. not two. not one. no need to see this. just aware.


Tashi delek,

Can you (maybe) explain:

- awareness of emptiness ?
- emptiness is awareness ?
- awareness is emptiness ?
- not two. not one. no need to see this ?

Mutsog Marro
KY

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IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:27 am 
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White Lotus wrote:
awareness of emptiness. emptiness is awareness. awareness is emptiness. not two. not one. no need to see this. just aware.


who is writting that crap?

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:18 pm 
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good question Sonam... my answer... crap can be found in a field and the lotus 'is' the mud.

aware of emptiness. the eye sees itself, if there was no seeing, there would be no awareness.

emptiness is awareness. nothing and yet we see it. the pupil within the dharma eye. awareness.

awareness is emptiness... all phenomena, all forms are empty. all forms are awareness.

since there is no path, there is only the recognising of awareness, which is spontaneousy complete and perfect without any effort. nothing is needed. not even recognition of awarness... which we all have.


best wishes, Tom.

(Sonam, i hope you are not offended by what i have written?, if it is seen as unhelpful, please explain why.)

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in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:34 am 
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White Lotus wrote:

awareness is emptiness...
Awareness and emptiness are inseparable connected. Emptiness of the cosmos DOES NOT have awareness.

all forms are awareness.
Matter NEVER has awareness

since there is no path, there is only the recognising of awareness,
Yes there is the path of gradual emancipation and this would be for you and others a good way to practice.

which is spontaneousy complete and perfect without any effort.
For the most not possible to perfect illusion without any effort

nothing is needed.
I guess that on the path of emancipation por lo menos a Guru / Dzogchen Master / Rigdzin is needed

not even recognition of awarness... which we all have.
Awareness is already a state which left behind recognition and what we all have, more or less, is Ma rigpa about our Natural State



Best wishes with your practice / study and seeking for a Guru :namaste:

Mutsog Marro
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:21 pm 
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consciousness/awarness/emptiness manifest themselves as forms/phenomena/dharmakaya. this pebble is awareness and is also conscious, when you know how... maybe that sounds ridiculous?!

i have a wonderful Guru thank you, a secret one. the teacher wants us to be independent, but so, still relying on Him.

you know all this talk of emptiness, awareness, non duality, its all crap. just be in the natural state, no worries about theories and concepts. nothing to worry about.

best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:45 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
you know all this talk of emptiness, awareness, non duality, its all crap.

Then why do you open a topic about it? :smile:

Saying to someone to "just be in the natural state, no worries about theories and concepts. nothing to worry about" may be misleading when not knowing his propensities, personality and so on and so forth.
You know, usually people who say things like this don't even know what the natural state is all about and limit themselves to repeat what they hear from masters as if they were parrots. I'm not saying that is your case, though. I have no idea neither I want to turn this in a personal remark.

For some people it is good to learn theories and to do so they need concepts. Others may have different paths, less intellectual, but there's no such thing as a one fits all advice. There's a point when theories and concepts don't matter much. When starting, so that we don't understand everything we are taught in the wrong way and develop all sorts of strange ideas, at least a little theory can't harm. Concepts are also very useful as long as we don't make hindrances out of them. The concept of not needing concepts is a concept in itself as you imagine. As long as we want communication to work, we need concepts and there's nothing wrong about this. However, concepts and reasoning have limits and that is what we can recognize along the way, going beyond them through practice (and not just belief). Do you get what I'm trying to say? :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:06 am 
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White Lotus wrote:
just be in the natural state, no worries about theories and concepts. nothing to worry about.



The problem with sentient beings is that their natural state is afflicted.

N

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http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:22 pm 
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yes, Namdrol, the struggle goes on, only easier than it was. do you find that too?

no need to see that the natural state is emptiness. just remain in it.

for some, nothing will ever need to be attained. they will just remain in the natural state, but i promise you, that if you see the natural state you are seeing emptiness, though you probably dont realise it. its so normal.

best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Dechen Norbu wrote:
White Lotus wrote:
For some people it is good to learn theories and to do so they need concepts. Others may have different paths, less intellectual, but there's no such thing as a one fits all advice.


This is very true. Also, the 'best advice' even for a single person may change over time - or be very dependent on the relationship one has with person giving the advice.

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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:40 pm 
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the beauty of the natural state is that you can be yourself, and it doesnt require anything. there may be knowledge of emptiness and then awareness/consciousness, but all these things are not necessary. a humble farmer or an uneducated person can appreciate the natural state without anything else, just as a philosopher may come to appreciate the natural state and then in his purity have very little left to say to people.

some people are probably not ready for it because their minds and ego are too bussy. they still need concepts for their mind to cling to. but i think that someone who has had an appreciation of things like awareness and emptiness is ready for it (speaking from my own experience), but why not a plumber, or electrician. a waitress or accountant, a farmer or labourer. if they are ready then they are ready, who are we to know.

nothing is required, i rest in my natural state. emptiness and clarity have merged, now i naturally abide in them. this is my natural state. sometimes naturally aware, sometimes naturally unaware. just being myself... wanting to write, wanting to talk, so talking. wanting to eat so eating, feeling tired so sleeping. natural.

i began this thread on awarness, awareness is the stage beyond emptiness, however one does not need to know this. i just rest in my natural state, how can i do anything else. i cant. it is spontaneously complete.

best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:25 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
the beauty of the natural state is that you can be yourself, and it doesnt require anything. there may be knowledge of emptiness and then awareness/consciousness, but all these things are not necessary. a humble farmer or an uneducated person can appreciate the natural state without anything else, just as a philosopher may come to appreciate the natural state and then in his purity have very little left to say to people.

About these experiences of the persons who dwell mainly in Ma Rigpa, does it symply mean that they are "aware" but don't recognize that state as the Natural State. In contrary does the Dzogchenpa(s) experience this State as " common" etc.

Then this to be in the Natural State requires so its preparations like the Kordo Rushens, Trekchod (+Thodgal). Or maybe first Sutra and Tantra?
Sorry, forgot to mention that Lama Naldjor forms the core of all techings and paths here....... :bow:

Mutsog Marro
KY



some people are probably not ready for it because their minds and ego are too bussy. they still need concepts for their mind to cling to. but i think that someone who has had an appreciation of things like awareness and emptiness is ready for it (speaking from my own experience), but why not a plumber, or electrician. a waitress or accountant, a farmer or labourer. if they are ready then they are ready, who are we to know.


best wishes, Tom.

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:43 pm 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Then this to be in the Natural State requires so its preparations like the Kordo Rushens, Trekchod (+Thodgal). Or maybe first Sutra and Tantra?
Sorry, forgot to mention that Lama Naldjor forms the core of all techings and paths here....... :bow:

Mutsog Marro
KY


No requirement ... only merit accumulation. All what you quote are complementary features.

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:49 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Then this to be in the Natural State requires so its preparations like the Kordo Rushens, Trekchod (+Thodgal). Or maybe first Sutra and Tantra?
Sorry, forgot to mention that Lama Naldjor forms the core of all techings and paths here....... :bow:

Mutsog Marro
KY


No requirement ... only merit accumulation. All what you quote are complementary features.

Sönam



Tashi delek

Am surprised about that the Natural State doesn't need ANY preparations, of course if i understood it well.
Sequential emancipation is also a way, but only based on merit? Merit is not always needed in some situations......

Mutsog Marro
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:19 pm 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Am surprised about that the Natural State doesn't need ANY preparations, of course if i understood it well.
Sequential emancipation is also a way, but only based on merit? Merit is not always needed in some situations......

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]


How could something natural needs preparations ?
What else except merits can bring in situation ?

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:59 am 
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Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Am surprised about that the Natural State doesn't need ANY preparations, of course if i understood it well.
Sequential emancipation is also a way, but only based on merit? Merit is not always needed in some situations......

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]


How could something natural needs preparations ?
What else except merits can bring in situation ?

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply

Gold does not need to be cleaned
Because it always keeps it value
But if gold is stuck in the mud
It needs to be cleaned with methods


Best wishes

Mutsog Marro
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:04 am 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Am surprised about that the Natural State doesn't need ANY preparations, of course if i understood it well.
Sequential emancipation is also a way, but only based on merit? Merit is not always needed in some situations......

Mutsog Marro
KY[/color]


How could something natural needs preparations ?
What else except merits can bring in situation ?

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply

Gold does not need to be cleaned
Because it always keeps it value
But if gold is stuck in the mud
It needs to be cleaned with methods


Best wishes

Mutsog Marro
KY


that's what I said ... the method in this case is precisely merits accumulation.

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:14 pm 
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nothing needed, naturally spontaneously complete... merits? you are too kind Sonam.
rigpa may be entered with the mind seal already attained. no need for a mind seal. the mahamudra is not needed.

Kalden, it is not a matter of awareness... awareness is cool, but completly unecessary when it is absent, eg in deep sleep, or day dreaming. the natural state is sometimes aware, sometimes not aware. just naturally as you are.

no need for talk of no mind, no self, nothingness or emptiness. you may have the seal of emptiness, you may know your own nature. these things are not necessary. the natural state is spontaneously complete.

when you taste the natural state it radiates, no need to taste the natural state. naturally complete just as you are naturally so. so when you worry, then you worry. when you are sad you are sad, suffering you naturally suffer. all complete.

best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:32 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
nothing needed, naturally spontaneously complete... merits? you are too kind Sonam.
rigpa may be entered with the mind seal already attained. no need for a mind seal. the mahamudra is not needed.

Kalden, it is not a matter of awareness... awareness is cool, but completly unecessary when it is absent, eg in deep sleep, or day dreaming. the natural state is sometimes aware, sometimes not aware. just naturally as you are.

no need for talk of no mind, no self, nothingness or emptiness. you may have the seal of emptiness, you may know your own nature. these things are not necessary. the natural state is spontaneously complete.

when you taste the natural state it radiates, no need to taste the natural state. naturally complete just as you are naturally so. so when you worry, then you worry. when you are sad you are sad, suffering you naturally suffer. all complete.

best wishes, Tom.


When you are full of crap, you are naturally full of crap...

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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