Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:06 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Yes I realize this is a Dzogchen thread. But the topic is why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra and it is a good question. Why bother? My opinion is that these are two separate paths and I don't feel they are really very complementary, because combining them necessarily mean one has to view Mahamudra as semde or as tregcho. This view is based on incomplete knowledge of Mahamudra.



Tashi delek,

You are right these are 2 separate paths (Dzogchen and Chag gya Chen po,and can agree to this for the full 108%. When to view Mahamudra as Dzogchen means to combine inside Mahamudra the Thodgal aspect, because Mahamudra would be in fact only the Trekchod aspect of Dzogchen.

But if Mahamudra = Dzogchen, we Dzogchenpas can better do only Mahamudra / Chag gya Chen po, and we don't do it.
Why? There is no Thodgal inside. :o

So regarding the lights in the Bardo State, would only result in the possibility to be reborn in the pure realms of one of the Wisdom Lights or the related Sambhogakaya Buddha and this is equal to Tantra fruit. This because Mahamudra does not has inside during life time the practice of the Thodgal or Sounds, Lights and Rays. So Bardo and the Lights, as the fruit is only something for Dzogchenpas.

Dorje Lingpa or also called Yungdrung Lingpa is the Terton of the Bardo Throdol. But this book is a Dzogchen book and so related to the Rigpa of the Lights. This is Dzogchen, the Tibetan book of "hearing "in the Bardo, but also used by non Dzogchenpas.............

Further as the 84 Mahasiddhas can attain during their Bardo of birth and staying in this world Buddhahood, then this is realy opposed to the Dzogchenpas, who can only attain the Dzogchen State during the disconnection of the impure elements.

So they don't die, but bypass the death at once, but do need that special moment and IF i did understood it well here, then can the Mahasiddhi realize this with another technic and here one can see again a big difference.

If Mahamudra would be complementary for a Dzogchenpa that is what i greatly doubt, but if Thodgal would be complementary for a Chag gya chenpo, that is what i can understand, but if they need it? I guess no................... :o



Mutsog Marro
KY


Mahamudra has a practice of nonmeditation with the primordially present deity and bija simultaneous. The source of the teaching is Vajravarahi. It is a little contradictory and paradoxical, but with the oral instruction and lineage blessing one can master it easily. One enters the path of seeing very early on; one will swiftly reach the level of buddhahood with such a method and the time span will rival that of Dzogchen. Therefore, the system of bardo, lights, and so on has no use here and it is actually in conflict. You can't practice this and Togal. It just won't work. You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do. But then Mahamudra leaves the world of yoga of two stages and the lines get blurred. Then Togal becomes like an obscuration for understanding subtle Mahamudra. Because Togal has its own stages and explanations so if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby heart » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:57 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Mahamudra has a practice of nonmeditation with the primordially present deity and bija simultaneous. The source of the teaching is Vajravarahi. It is a little contradictory and paradoxical, but with the oral instruction and lineage blessing one can master it easily. One enters the path of seeing very early on; one will swiftly reach the level of buddhahood with such a method and the time span will rival that of Dzogchen. Therefore, the system of bardo, lights, and so on has no use here and it is actually in conflict. You can't practice this and Togal. It just won't work. You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do. But then Mahamudra leaves the world of yoga of two stages and the lines get blurred. Then Togal becomes like an obscuration for understanding subtle Mahamudra. Because Togal has its own stages and explanations so if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards.


Funny post, I am sure you will find a lot of good friends here. :smile:

/magnus
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:06 pm

heart wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Mahamudra has a practice of nonmeditation with the primordially present deity and bija simultaneous. The source of the teaching is Vajravarahi. It is a little contradictory and paradoxical, but with the oral instruction and lineage blessing one can master it easily. One enters the path of seeing very early on; one will swiftly reach the level of buddhahood with such a method and the time span will rival that of Dzogchen. Therefore, the system of bardo, lights, and so on has no use here and it is actually in conflict. You can't practice this and Togal. It just won't work. You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do. But then Mahamudra leaves the world of yoga of two stages and the lines get blurred. Then Togal becomes like an obscuration for understanding subtle Mahamudra. Because Togal has its own stages and explanations so if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards.


Funny post, I am sure you will find a lot of good friends here. :smile:

/magnus


Sarcasm is hatred's half-brother.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby heart » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:19 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
heart wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Mahamudra has a practice of nonmeditation with the primordially present deity and bija simultaneous. The source of the teaching is Vajravarahi. It is a little contradictory and paradoxical, but with the oral instruction and lineage blessing one can master it easily. One enters the path of seeing very early on; one will swiftly reach the level of buddhahood with such a method and the time span will rival that of Dzogchen. Therefore, the system of bardo, lights, and so on has no use here and it is actually in conflict. You can't practice this and Togal. It just won't work. You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do. But then Mahamudra leaves the world of yoga of two stages and the lines get blurred. Then Togal becomes like an obscuration for understanding subtle Mahamudra. Because Togal has its own stages and explanations so if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards.


Funny post, I am sure you will find a lot of good friends here. :smile:

/magnus


Sarcasm is hatred's half-brother.


Lack of a sense of humor is just sad. Relax, I really thought is was funny. Totally unexpected somehow. All the years I been on Dharma forums I must say you sure don't often read something like this.

/magnus
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:22 pm

heart wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
heart wrote:
Funny post, I am sure you will find a lot of good friends here. :smile:

/magnus


Sarcasm is hatred's half-brother.


Lack of a sense of humor is just sad. Relax, I really thought is was funny. Totally unexpected somehow. All the years I been on Dharma forums I must say you sure don't often read something like this.

/magnus


Ok sorry. I was intending it to be a serious post. Its one of those situations where I'm trying to be serious and it draws laughter. That makes me feel a little stupid. Please tell me what is so funny so I can laugh too.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:34 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
Ok sorry. I was intending it to be a serious post. Its one of those situations where I'm trying to be serious and it draws laughter. That makes me feel a little stupid. Please tell me what is so funny so I can laugh too.


I imagine it was this:

Because Togal has its own stages and explanations so if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby heart » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:39 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
heart wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Sarcasm is hatred's half-brother.


Lack of a sense of humor is just sad. Relax, I really thought is was funny. Totally unexpected somehow. All the years I been on Dharma forums I must say you sure don't often read something like this.

/magnus


Ok sorry. I was intending it to be a serious post. Its one of those situations where I'm trying to be serious and it draws laughter. That makes me feel a little stupid. Please tell me what is so funny so I can laugh too.


Well, one thing is that I was half expecting you to come with the kind of very usual view that Dzogchen is superior to Mahamudra because it got Tögal. Then you come with "if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards". Very unexpected and entertaining indeed.

What tradition of Mahamudra do you practice in and who is your teacher?

/magnus
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Jnana » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:44 pm

deepbluehum wrote:You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do.

Of course. The two systems can be unified and practiced together. There is no necessity to do so, but it can be done.

deepbluehum wrote:But then Mahamudra leaves the world of yoga of two stages and the lines get blurred. Then Togal becomes like an obscuration for understanding subtle Mahamudra. Because Togal has its own stages and explanations so if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards.

There are numerous unique instructions specific to different Mahāmudrā lineages. The combination with Dzogchen is just one possibility. As such, the union of the two systems is entirely compatible and without conflict.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:52 pm

Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do.

Would like to know here the Dzogchen Lineage addition, this because Thodgal a unit forms with Trekchod, and that is what it all finally makes Dzogchen.
So why not at once in a Dzogchen Lineage?


Best wishes

Mutsog marro
KY



Of course. The two systems can be unified and practiced together. There is no necessity to do so, but it can be done.
Also hre the same remark as see above.
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:04 pm

heart wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
heart wrote:Lack of a sense of humor is just sad. Relax, I really thought is was funny. Totally unexpected somehow. All the years I been on Dharma forums I must say you sure don't often read something like this.

/magnus


Ok sorry. I was intending it to be a serious post. Its one of those situations where I'm trying to be serious and it draws laughter. That makes me feel a little stupid. Please tell me what is so funny so I can laugh too.


Well, one thing is that I was half expecting you to come with the kind of very usual view that Dzogchen is superior to Mahamudra because it got Tögal. Then you come with "if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards". Very unexpected and entertaining indeed.

What tradition of Mahamudra do you practice in and who is your teacher?

/magnus


It is not my intention to entertain you.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Jnana » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:05 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do.

Would like to know here the Dzogchen Lineage addition, this because Thodgal a unit forms with Trekchod, and that is what it all finally makes Dzogchen.
So why not at once in a Dzogchen Lineage?


Best wishes

Mutsog marro
KY



Of course. The two systems can be unified and practiced together. There is no necessity to do so, but it can be done.
Also hre the same remark as see above.

IMO it's mainly helpful for practitioners who first learned a Kagyu Mahāmudrā system and then went on to practice a Dzogchen cycle such as Könchok Chidü or a cycle from the Chokling Tersar, etc.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby heart » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:08 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
heart wrote:
What tradition of Mahamudra do you practice in and who is your teacher?

/magnus


It is not my intention to entertain you.


But you did. Would you mind answer my question?

/magnus
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:12 pm

Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do.

Of course. The two systems can be unified and practiced together. There is no necessity to do so, but it can be done.

deepbluehum wrote:But then Mahamudra leaves the world of yoga of two stages and the lines get blurred. Then Togal becomes like an obscuration for understanding subtle Mahamudra. Because Togal has its own stages and explanations so if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards.

There are numerous unique instructions specific to different Mahāmudrā lineages. The combination with Dzogchen is just one possibility. As such, the union of the two systems is entirely compatible and without conflict.


I agree there is a combination with Dzogchen that can work. But as you mentioned unique instructions specific to different Mahamudra lineages, some of these will not be compatible.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:15 pm

heart wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
heart wrote:
What tradition of Mahamudra do you practice in and who is your teacher?

/magnus


It is not my intention to entertain you.


But you did. Would you mind answer my question?

/magnus


The tradition of Mahamudra I practice is the White Face and Red Nose lineage. My teacher is Bim Bom Rinpoche.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby heart » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:45 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
The tradition of Mahamudra I practice is the White Face and Red Nose lineage. My teacher is Bim Bom Rinpoche.


As you please, I have no problem of saying that my Guru is Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche and my main tradition is the Chokling Tersar. If you want to be serious you got to have some guts.

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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:04 pm

heart wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
The tradition of Mahamudra I practice is the White Face and Red Nose lineage. My teacher is Bim Bom Rinpoche.


As you please, I have no problem of saying that my Guru is Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche and my main tradition is the Chokling Tersar. If you want to be serious you got to have some guts.

/magnus


Oh you kidder you. Ha ha ha.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby heart » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:58 am

deepbluehum wrote:
heart wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
The tradition of Mahamudra I practice is the White Face and Red Nose lineage. My teacher is Bim Bom Rinpoche.


As you please, I have no problem of saying that my Guru is Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche and my main tradition is the Chokling Tersar. If you want to be serious you got to have some guts.

/magnus


Oh you kidder you. Ha ha ha.


You are really very touchy. I made you angry no doubt.

If you want to discuss these matters seriously you have to have some references for what you claim or else you loose all credibility. You might not want to say who your Guru is but you do have to provide some kind of references for the statement you made if you want to be taken serious. This was the only reason I had for asking you about your Guru and lineage.

/magnus
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:52 pm

Nobody responded to me, so you probably don't care, but, I went ahead and got that Practice of Mahamudra book. $6.50. I guess I'll do the practices if I feel like it without any connection to the lineage.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:59 pm

padma norbu wrote:Nobody responded to me, so you probably don't care, but, I went ahead and got that Practice of Mahamudra book. $6.50. I guess I'll do the practices if I feel like it without any connection to the lineage.


That would be a mistake. In order to practice this system of mahāmudra (five fold mahāmudra) you need to have the initiation of Cakrasamvara. And thsi system really stresses guru devotion.

N
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby padma norbu » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Nobody responded to me, so you probably don't care, but, I went ahead and got that Practice of Mahamudra book. $6.50. I guess I'll do the practices if I feel like it without any connection to the lineage.


That would be a mistake. In order to practice this system of mahāmudra (five fold mahāmudra) you need to have the initiation of Cakrasamvara. And thsi system really stresses guru devotion.

N


Too late, you should have told me sooner. Now, I am going down the path of destructive and unwise action! :smile:

I am actually talking about this: http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Mahamudr ... 1559391243

NOT this: http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_9765.html

Make any difference? Edit: LOL, nevermind they are the same book with different covers.

I just wanted to read about it because it looked clear and concise and I wanted to also read about the Vajrasattva practice. I might just try to do that Vajrasattva practice, basically. I don't know what Namkhai Norbu's Vajrasattva practice is, but I have the lung and everyone seems to do some kind of Vajrasattva practice with or without lung. If I am not mistaken, Vajrasattva is basically like Tara or Chenrezig in that anyone can benefit from the mantra, right?
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