kalden yungdrung wrote:deepbluehum wrote:Yes I realize this is a Dzogchen thread. But the topic is why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra and it is a good question. Why bother? My opinion is that these are two separate paths and I don't feel they are really very complementary, because combining them necessarily mean one has to view Mahamudra as semde or as tregcho. This view is based on incomplete knowledge of Mahamudra.
You are right these are 2 separate paths (Dzogchen and Chag gya Chen po,and can agree to this for the full 108%. When to view Mahamudra as Dzogchen means to combine inside Mahamudra the Thodgal aspect, because Mahamudra would be in fact only the Trekchod aspect of Dzogchen.
But if Mahamudra = Dzogchen, we Dzogchenpas can better do only Mahamudra / Chag gya Chen po, and we don't do it.
Why? There is no Thodgal inside.
So regarding the lights in the Bardo State, would only result in the possibility to be reborn in the pure realms of one of the Wisdom Lights or the related Sambhogakaya Buddha and this is equal to Tantra fruit. This because Mahamudra does not has inside during life time the practice of the Thodgal or Sounds, Lights and Rays. So Bardo and the Lights, as the fruit is only something for Dzogchenpas.
Dorje Lingpa or also called Yungdrung Lingpa is the Terton of the Bardo Throdol. But this book is a Dzogchen book and so related to the Rigpa of the Lights. This is Dzogchen, the Tibetan book of "hearing "in the Bardo, but also used by non Dzogchenpas.............
Further as the 84 Mahasiddhas can attain during their Bardo of birth and staying in this world Buddhahood, then this is realy opposed to the Dzogchenpas, who can only attain the Dzogchen State during the disconnection of the impure elements.
So they don't die, but bypass the death at once, but do need that special moment and IF i did understood it well here, then can the Mahasiddhi realize this with another technic and here one can see again a big difference.
If Mahamudra would be complementary for a Dzogchenpa that is what i greatly doubt, but if Thodgal would be complementary for a Chag gya chenpo, that is what i can understand, but if they need it? I guess no...................
Mahamudra has a practice of nonmeditation with the primordially present deity and bija simultaneous. The source of the teaching is Vajravarahi. It is a little contradictory and paradoxical, but with the oral instruction and lineage blessing one can master it easily. One enters the path of seeing very early on; one will swiftly reach the level of buddhahood with such a method and the time span will rival that of Dzogchen. Therefore, the system of bardo, lights, and so on has no use here and it is actually in conflict. You can't practice this and Togal. It just won't work. You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do. But then Mahamudra leaves the world of yoga of two stages and the lines get blurred. Then Togal becomes like an obscuration for understanding subtle Mahamudra. Because Togal has its own stages and explanations so if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards.