Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Adamantine » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:20 am

all this talk of the "union" of dzogchen and mahamudra provokes a very x-rated image.. i'm just not sure which is the yab and which is the yum.

what comes to mind as an answer is simply "different strokes for different folks", -- the same idea as why Shakyamuni taught 84,000 dharmas for the different proclivities and capacities of sentient beings. One person may naturally relate to the language and methods of the mahamudra approach and just space out and daydream during teachings on Dzogchen, or the corollary.
So if there are teachers teaching both it may be because they are sensitive enough to know that they have students that variously need both.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby mindyourmind » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:31 am

daelm wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:And so the thread continues on which of the two paths are best - which was not the question at all.



also, that's an awesome signature you have there :smile:


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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Pero » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:46 am

heart wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:And so the thread continues on which of the two paths are best - which was not the question at all.


Eh? :alien:

My thoughts exactly. :shrug:
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby daelm » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:04 am

mindyourmind wrote:
daelm wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:And so the thread continues on which of the two paths are best - which was not the question at all.



also, that's an awesome signature you have there :smile:


d


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:rolling:
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:46 pm

mindyourmind wrote:I understand the differences between these two paths, and I understand their similarities, but I am not sure that I understand why someone (for example YMR) would combine the two, to the point of actually practicing both.

Why would you need both?


Any ideas?



Tashi delek,

In case /because Mahamudra does not have inside the Thogal practice or the practice of the lights, it would be good to do after Mahamudra the Thodgal practice.
So why not do at once the Dzogchen practice?

I heard that in Nepal would be practiced at first Chag gya Chenpo and then on top of that Dzogchen, of course IF i did understood that well.....

Besides that is the practice of Thodgal very important to (be able) recognize in the Bardo State the lights.
If one can recognize the Lights in the Bardo (as ("self")emanating from oursellves) one is liberated.

Otherwise the lights and other bardo experiences are seen as dualisms and no liberation is possible and fear and running away is the case. So rebirth in one of the 6 destinies within Samsara is then obtained.

But there aare anyway for the serious practitioners many possibilities in the after death State........ :bow:

Maybe a nice related link? :)
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5043


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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:06 pm

Pero wrote:
I would think the question remains whichever one of the three main types of Mahamudra you choose. Why practice both?
Well, the thing I don't get is, why not? There is no contradiction in practicing Dzogchen together with anything.



Tashi delek,

If i understood it well, then is Dzogchen for the full 108% complete, everything is there inside and nothing is missing there.
Or is it wrong to see Dzogchen as the highest teachings? :o
Why to practise it with something else? :rolling:

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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:12 pm

mindyourmind wrote:Why would you need both?


They are complementary practices.

A similar question is why practice creation and completion stage and Dzogchen?

Again, it is because they are complimentary practices.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:09 pm

Of course Mahamudra can take you to Buddhahood in twelve years. That's not long. Dzogchen is very good. But there is no need to denigrate another path to second class status. That's bad.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:42 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Of course Mahamudra can take you to Buddhahood in twelve years. That's not long. Dzogchen is very good. But there is no need to denigrate another path to second class status. That's bad.



Tashi delek,

I am very curious about those 12 years, regarding the obtaining of Buddhahood.

Questions:

- Is this during our actual live, before we go into the Bardo of the lights etc.?
- Are there examples of persons who did obtain Buddhahood before the mind is leaving the body?
- What is meant by: But there is no need to denigrate another path to second class status. That's bad.
- What is the another path and what is here 2nd class, in comparisation to what other method?

Best wishes

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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:46 pm

Namdrol wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:Why would you need both?


They are complementary practices.

A similar question is why practice creation and completion stage and Dzogchen?

Again, it is because they are complimentary practices.



Tashi delek,

I don't understand the creation and completion state in Dzogchen.
If those stages are based on Tantra as a forerunner then i must say that Dzogchen is not based on Tantra per se.

So if i do understand our Lopon la well, then his opinion would be that Dzogchen is not based on Tantra per se.
Then the conclusion would be that Dzogchen can be practized without a base like Tantra.

Best wishe

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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:53 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Of course Mahamudra can take you to Buddhahood in twelve years. That's not long. Dzogchen is very good. But there is no need to denigrate another path to second class status. That's bad.



[color=#0040FF]Tashi delek,

I am very curious about those 12 years, regarding the obtaining of Buddhahood.

Questions:

kalden yungdrung wrote:- Is this during our actual live, before we go into the Bardo of the lights etc.?


Yes

kalden yungdrung wrote:- Are there examples of persons who did obtain Buddhahood before the mind is leaving the body?


84 Mahasiddhas

kalden yungdrung wrote:- What is meant by: But there is no need to denigrate another path to second class status. That's bad.


The assumption is that one must resort to Togal. Togal is not the only method to attain rainbow body. It is a fast method, but if you look at the history of 84 Mahasiddhas, if you want to believe these accounts, it says the siddhas left the world without leaving their body behind.

kalden yungdrung wrote:- What is the another path and what is here 2nd class, in comparisation to what other method?


It just seems as if perhaps you are saying Togal is indispensable. This is not so. If I misread you, I'm sorry.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:19 pm

deepbluehum wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Of course Mahamudra can take you to Buddhahood in twelve years. That's not long. Dzogchen is very good. But there is no need to denigrate another path to second class status. That's bad.



Tashi delek,

I am very curious about those 12 years, regarding the obtaining of Buddhahood.

Questions:

kalden yungdrung wrote:- Is this during our actual live, before we go into the Bardo of the lights etc.?


Yes

kalden yungdrung wrote:- Are there examples of persons who did obtain Buddhahood before the mind is leaving the body?


84 Mahasiddhas

kalden yungdrung wrote:- What is meant by: But there is no need to denigrate another path to second class status. That's bad.


The assumption is that one must resort to Togal. Togal is not the only method to attain rainbow body. It is a fast method, but if you look at the history of 84 Mahasiddhas, if you want to believe these accounts, it says the siddhas left the world without leaving their body behind.
KY wrote:
[color=#0040FF] KY wrote:
Dzogchenpas give a prove about their realization / Dharmakaya, by the appearing of the Rainbow body where the body of karma is dissolved into the clearness aspect of the lights and rays. So one can prove the obtaining of a Dzogchenpa's realization by the appearing of the Rainbow Body where only are left the nails and hairs as the unclean karmic remains. At first the body shrinks and shrinks. The Bonpo Shardza Tashi Gyaltsen also wellknown as a Rime Master, did obtain this Rainbow Body in 1935 and was witnessed by many Tibetans.



KY wrote:
Know that if one does only Trekchod, one can dissolve the body into subtil atoms. But that would be not the resolution. This because the emptiness aspect would be over esteemated and not related to the clearness aspect. Further is teached by all Dzogchenpas that Trekchod is inseparable connected to Thodgal or tongcha / emptiness with the clearness aspect /. So Tongcha represents only emptiness whereas there is also the aspects of lights, sounds and rays (clearness). When the latter (clearness) is missing then there is only left nihilistic emptiness or the emptiness of the cosmos
.

kalden yungdrung wrote:- What is the another path and what is here 2nd class, in comparisation to what other method?


It just seems as if perhaps you are saying Togal is indispensable. This is not so. If I misread you, I'm sorry.

Yes Dzogchenpas see or are convinced about the inseparable connection of the emptiness aspect of the mind with the clearness aspect of the mind or better said Trekchod is connected always to Thodgal.

KY wrote:
If one is able to recognize these lights in the Bardo State one can get immediately liberated.

Best wishes

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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:13 am

Yes I realize this is a Dzogchen thread. But the topic is why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra and it is a good question. Why bother? My opinion is that these are two separate paths and I don't feel they are really very complementary, because combining them necessarily mean one has to view Mahamudra as semde or as tregcho. This view is based on incomplete knowledge of Mahamudra.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Jnana » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:32 am

deepbluehum wrote:But the topic is why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra and it is a good question. Why bother? My opinion is that these are two separate paths and I don't feel they are really very complementary, because combining them necessarily mean one has to view Mahamudra as semde or as tregcho. This view is based on incomplete knowledge of Mahamudra.

Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen are each complete paths. The combined practice isn't because one is inferior or incomplete. It's because they are complimentary as Namdrol has said.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:44 am

Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:But the topic is why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra and it is a good question. Why bother? My opinion is that these are two separate paths and I don't feel they are really very complementary, because combining them necessarily mean one has to view Mahamudra as semde or as tregcho. This view is based on incomplete knowledge of Mahamudra.

Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen are each complete paths. The combined practice isn't because one is inferior or incomplete. It's because they are complimentary as Namdrol has said.


In fact I know they are not complementary. But you can believe what you like.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Jnana » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:16 am

deepbluehum wrote:In fact I know they are not complementary.

And how, in fact, do you know this?
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:08 am

deepbluehum wrote:Yes I realize this is a Dzogchen thread. But the topic is why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra and it is a good question. Why bother? My opinion is that these are two separate paths and I don't feel they are really very complementary, because combining them necessarily mean one has to view Mahamudra as semde or as tregcho. This view is based on incomplete knowledge of Mahamudra.



Tashi delek,

You are right these are 2 separate paths (Dzogchen and Chag gya Chen po,and can agree to this for the full 108%. When to view Mahamudra as Dzogchen means to combine inside Mahamudra the Thodgal aspect, because Mahamudra would be in fact only the Trekchod aspect of Dzogchen.

But if Mahamudra = Dzogchen, we Dzogchenpas can better do only Mahamudra / Chag gya Chen po, and we don't do it.
Why? There is no Thodgal inside. :o

So regarding the lights in the Bardo State, would only result in the possibility to be reborn in the pure realms of one of the Wisdom Lights or the related Sambhogakaya Buddha and this is equal to Tantra fruit. This because Mahamudra does not has inside during life time the practice of the Thodgal or Sounds, Lights and Rays. So Bardo and the Lights, as the fruit is only something for Dzogchenpas.

Dorje Lingpa or also called Yungdrung Lingpa is the Terton of the Bardo Throdol. But this book is a Dzogchen book and so related to the Rigpa of the Lights. This is Dzogchen, the Tibetan book of "hearing "in the Bardo, but also used by non Dzogchenpas.............

Further as the 84 Mahasiddhas can attain during their Bardo of birth and staying in this world Buddhahood, then this is realy opposed to the Dzogchenpas, who can only attain the Dzogchen State during the disconnection of the impure elements.

So they don't die, but bypass the death at once, but do need that special moment and IF i did understood it well here, then can the Mahasiddhi realize this with another technic and here one can see again a big difference.

If Mahamudra would be complementary for a Dzogchenpa that is what i greatly doubt, but if Thodgal would be complementary for a Chag gya chenpo, that is what i can understand, but if they need it? I guess no................... :o



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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:16 pm

deepbluehum wrote:...because combining them necessarily mean one has to view Mahamudra as semde or as tregcho. This view is based on incomplete knowledge of Mahamudra.


No, this is not the case.

Gampopa's Mahamudra system can be regarded as an adaptation of sems sde, but that does not include all possible variations on Mahāmudra.

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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby padma norbu » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:16 pm

I saw in the used bookstore yesterday a very fine copy of The Practice of Mahammudra by H.H. Chetsang Rinpoche and flipped through it. It seemed to be extremely clear and succinct, briefly discussing the preliminaries and then going right onto the main practice. There was also a concise Vajrasattva practice at the end that caught my interest. I almost bought the book, but I am not sure if it is necessary to have received some type of lung to do any of these practices. It very much seemed like Dzogchen practices, actually. I don't have a copy of Namkhai Norbu's Vajrasattva practice, so I thought buying this for $6 would be a great investment overall. But, like I said, I don't know if the practices would be of much benefit without being connected to the lineage directly.
This is the book: http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Mahamudr ... 1559391243
Anyone read it?
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:41 pm

Namdrol wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:...because combining them necessarily mean one has to view Mahamudra as semde or as tregcho. This view is based on incomplete knowledge of Mahamudra.


No, this is not the case.

Gampopa's Mahamudra system can be regarded as an adaptation of sems sde, but that does not include all possible variations on Mahāmudra.

N


Correct.
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