Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

[Jinzang]

Chetsang Rinpoche's book is a nice contemporary explanation of mahamudra and there's no harm in anyone reading it, only benefit. If you want to practice mahamudra on your own (not that this is the best way of doing things, but still) I would suggest doing refuge & bodhicitta prayers, a short guru yoga practice followed by shamatha practice, and finish with dedication of merit.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Mahamudra has a practice of nonmeditation with the primordially present deity and bija simultaneous. The source of the teaching is Vajravarahi. It is a little contradictory and paradoxical, but with the oral instruction and lineage blessing one can master it easily. One enters the path of seeing very early on; one will swiftly reach the level of buddhahood with such a method and the time span will rival that of Dzogchen. Therefore, the system of bardo, lights, and so on has no use here and it is actually in conflict. You can't practice this and Togal. It just won't work. You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do. But then Mahamudra leaves the world of yoga of two stages and the lines get blurred. Then Togal becomes like an obscuration for understanding subtle Mahamudra. Because Togal has its own stages and explanations so if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards.

You obviously have a fundamental misunderstanding of what togal means and how it functions. Honestly, it really seems impossible to me that one could even understand what it means to be in one's knowledge of primordial purity and make statements like these. There is nothing more authentic or comprehensive to be known than inseparable primordial purity and natural formation, so no matter what we want to call our individual traditions, there is not a single one out there that enables realization of something beyond this. Anything "more" or less would entail contrivance and miss the mark.

[Heruka]

We have methods for realizing Mahamudra in half a day.

Then teach them, don't just brag about them and lock them away in some text that is too holy to look at.

N

brilliant!

[Heruka]

these topics always promote tight rope walking in two tonne shoes....

[Heruka]

having had pointing out in both mahamudra and dzogchen...i can tell no difference.

just happy and content to have the conditions to have those...

[deepbluehum]

Mahamudra has a practice of nonmeditation with the primordially present deity and bija simultaneous. The source of the teaching is Vajravarahi. It is a little contradictory and paradoxical, but with the oral instruction and lineage blessing one can master it easily. One enters the path of seeing very early on; one will swiftly reach the level of buddhahood with such a method and the time span will rival that of Dzogchen. Therefore, the system of bardo, lights, and so on has no use here and it is actually in conflict. You can't practice this and Togal. It just won't work. You can practice like the kyerim and dzogrim from Mahamudra and then practice Togal. That is something people do. But then Mahamudra leaves the world of yoga of two stages and the lines get blurred. Then Togal becomes like an obscuration for understanding subtle Mahamudra. Because Togal has its own stages and explanations so if you practice Mahamudra like I have described and then go practice Togal it is like going backwards.

You obviously have a fundamental misunderstanding of what togal means and how it functions. Honestly, it really seems impossible to me that one could even understand what it means to be in one's knowledge of primordial purity and make statements like these. There is nothing more authentic or comprehensive to be known than inseparable primordial purity and natural formation, so no matter what we want to call our individual traditions, there is not a single one out there that enables realization of something beyond this. Anything "more" or less would entail contrivance and miss the mark.

You are speaking in Dzogchen terms. Mahamudra speaks in different terms and has different methods. I'm not saying one is more authentic than another. I'm saying the terms and methods are different enough that you can't do both; and I am only referring to a small set of practices in the Mahamudra path. It seems from what I see here Dzogchenpas view Mahamudra through the lens of kyerim and dzogrim or Gampopa's four yogas. This does not encompass the entire universe of Mahamudra.

[deepbluehum]

having had pointing out in both mahamudra and dzogchen...i can tell no difference.

just happy and content to have the conditions to have those...

These are introductions. Methods then can vary.

[Heruka]

These are introductions. Methods then can vary.

so what?

[Pema Rigdzin]

You are speaking in Dzogchen terms. Mahamudra speaks in different terms and has different methods. I'm not saying one is more authentic than another. I'm saying the terms and methods are different enough that you can't do both; and I am only referring to a small set of practices in the Mahamudra path. It seems from what I see here Dzogchenpas view Mahamudra through the lens of kyerim and dzogrim or Gampopa's four yogas. This does not encompass the entire universe of Mahamudra.

I was actually thinking of what is commonly referred to as "essence Mahamudra" and which is pretty widely considered more or less equivalent to Dzogchen's tregchod. Now, no matter what one wants to call one's practice, one either has knowledge of the natural state or one doesn't. If one doesn't, then one must work with gradual methods to get to the point of having that knowledge - in this case, one has not yet even actualized the capacity to practice togal. If one DOES have knowledge of the natural state, and one has enough stability in that knowledge -regardless of the name of one's tradition or the methods one used to actualize that knowledge - then one can begin togal. Whether it's Dzogchen or any of the many versions of Mahamudra, when one is at the point of being in rigpa, there is no possibility of incompatibility with togal because togal is just truly revealing rigpa in its utter completeness. I assure you there is no path to be found anywhere at all for which togal is a "step backwards."

And really, all this talk of togal's eminence is not a point of pride or eliteness for actual Dzogchenpas. I mean, while it is a fact that togal happens to be taught in the tantras of the Dzogchen approach rather than some other approach, to see different paths as "superior" or "inferior" is to see things ass backwards. The way I see it, there is no such thing as an authentic Dharma path that is lacking; there are only beings who have specific circumstances and Dharma paths that fulfill the function of the most suitable instructions for them. All the various paths are just means tailored to beings' needs in order to breakthrough to knowledge of the way things truly are.

[Pero]

I just wanted to read about it because it looked clear and concise and I wanted to also read about the Vajrasattva practice. I might just try to do that Vajrasattva practice, basically. I don't know what Namkhai Norbu's Vajrasattva practice is, but I have the lung and everyone seems to do some kind of Vajrasattva practice with or without lung. If I am not mistaken, Vajrasattva is basically like Tara or Chenrezig in that anyone can benefit from the mantra, right?

If you received the lung for the medium ganapuja then you certainly received the lung for Vajrasatva mantra. As for the practice, if I'm not mistaken they (DC) used to practice a kind of sadhana in the more distant past, but not nowadays. In any case I think you can just visualize Vajrasatva above your head (pronounce a syllable first to manifest it) and recite the mantra while visualizing nectar coming down from Vajrasatva purifying everything. This is what I do usually, unless I have time, will and opportunity to do the practices below.

But otherwise there are two Vajrasatva practices you can learn, they're not as simple though. One is Rinpoche's own super powerful Longsal Purification Of Six Lokas With Vajrasatva, you can practice this also if you only received the lung for the Purification of 6 Lokas that he gives at the end of retreats (+lung of Vajrasatva mantra). And the other one is Narag Tongtrug, of which Jamgon Kongtrul in his Buddhist Ethics says it is an extraordinary method and that if you practice it on the 8th, 15th and 30th of the lunar month all samaya is purified. It is a little complicated though, so maybe not for you.

[Malcolm]

I was actually thinking of what is commonly referred to as "essence Mahamudra" and which is pretty widely considered more or less equivalent to Dzogchen's tregchod.

No, Four yogas = four samadhis (sems sde) = tregchö (man ngag sde).

Essence mahāmudra is completely different. It is basically a cig car method of sudden awakening. It is equivalent to direct introduction.

N

[deepbluehum]

You are speaking in Dzogchen terms. Mahamudra speaks in different terms and has different methods. I'm not saying one is more authentic than another. I'm saying the terms and methods are different enough that you can't do both; and I am only referring to a small set of practices in the Mahamudra path. It seems from what I see here Dzogchenpas view Mahamudra through the lens of kyerim and dzogrim or Gampopa's four yogas. This does not encompass the entire universe of Mahamudra.

I was actually thinking of what is commonly referred to as "essence Mahamudra" and which is pretty widely considered more or less equivalent to Dzogchen's tregchod. Now, no matter what one wants to call one's practice, one either has knowledge of the natural state or one doesn't. If one doesn't, then one must work with gradual methods to get to the point of having that knowledge - in this case, one has not yet even actualized the capacity to practice togal. If one DOES have knowledge of the natural state, and one has enough stability in that knowledge -regardless of the name of one's tradition or the methods one used to actualize that knowledge - then one can begin togal. Whether it's Dzogchen or any of the many versions of Mahamudra, when one is at the point of being in rigpa, there is no possibility of incompatibility with togal because togal is just truly revealing rigpa in its utter completeness. I assure you there is no path to be found anywhere at all for which togal is a "step backwards."

And really, all this talk of togal's eminence is not a point of pride or eliteness for actual Dzogchenpas. I mean, while it is a fact that togal happens to be taught in the tantras of the Dzogchen approach rather than some other approach, to see different paths as "superior" or "inferior" is to see things ass backwards. The way I see it, there is no such thing as an authentic Dharma path that is lacking; there are only beings who have specific circumstances and Dharma paths that fulfill the function of the most suitable instructions for them. All the various paths are just means tailored to beings' needs in order to breakthrough to knowledge of the way things truly are.

I agree with everything you have said.