Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

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Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby mindyourmind » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:03 pm

I understand the differences between these two paths, and I understand their similarities, but I am not sure that I understand why someone (for example YMR) would combine the two, to the point of actually practicing both.

Why would you need both?


Any ideas?
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby ground » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:15 pm

Better safe than sorry


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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby mindyourmind » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:25 pm

TMingyur wrote:Better safe than sorry


Kind regards


That would imply that one of the paths has a defect(s).
No-one that matters is saying that, so I cannot see how that can be the answer.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby adinatha » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:36 pm

I agree. Well, on the one hand YMR might feel beholden to both because his father did both and there's that whole Rime kumbaya attitude. But in a very real way for most folks, doing both is due to doubt. Doubt in oneself and doubt in the method. A practitioner should dig deep into the instructions until one's doubts are eliminated, then proceed single-pointedly. Otherwise, progress will be slow and interrupted by numerous set backs. Doubt is a pernicious devil, and can lurk in the background even while we are projecting confidence.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Pero » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:41 pm

mindyourmind wrote:I understand the differences between these two paths, and I understand their similarities, but I am not sure that I understand why someone (for example YMR) would combine the two, to the point of actually practicing both.

Why would you need both?

Any ideas?

I don't understand your questions. What kind of Mahamudra are you talking about?
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby heart » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:21 pm

mindyourmind wrote:I understand the differences between these two paths, and I understand their similarities, but I am not sure that I understand why someone (for example YMR) would combine the two, to the point of actually practicing both.

Why would you need both?


Any ideas?


Yes, because most people don't get it when they receive direct introduction so then Mahamudra can provide a gradual path until they actually get it. I did a retreat with Mingyur Rinpoche last year, he did a number of direct Dzogchen style introductions over a weekend combined with a more Mahamudra style of leading the student gradually to an understanding of their mind and what meditation is.

/magnus
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby heart » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:25 pm

mindyourmind wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Better safe than sorry


Kind regards


That would imply that one of the paths has a defect(s).
No-one that matters is saying that, so I cannot see how that can be the answer.


It does answer the question in a way. If you don't get the direct introduction you don't get it, it isn't a defect to don't get it. It surely isn't a defect in the Dzogchen tradition anyway. Dzogchen is not for everyone even if many might benefit from Dzogchen teachings.

/magnus
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby mindyourmind » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:52 pm

Pero wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:I understand the differences between these two paths, and I understand their similarities, but I am not sure that I understand why someone (for example YMR) would combine the two, to the point of actually practicing both.

Why would you need both?

Any ideas?

I don't understand your questions. What kind of Mahamudra are you talking about?


I would think the question remains whichever one of the three main types of Mahamudra you choose. Why practice both?
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby adinatha » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:08 pm

heart wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:I understand the differences between these two paths, and I understand their similarities, but I am not sure that I understand why someone (for example YMR) would combine the two, to the point of actually practicing both.

Why would you need both?


Any ideas?


Yes, because most people don't get it when they receive direct introduction so then Mahamudra can provide a gradual path until they actually get it. I did a retreat with Mingyur Rinpoche last year, he did a number of direct Dzogchen style introductions over a weekend combined with a more Mahamudra style of leading the student gradually to an understanding of their mind and what meditation is.

/magnus


I don't think these Rime Mahamudra people do Mahamudra justice. Mahamudra has introductions that are just as immediate as Dzogchen. Mahamudra is very realistic in the way it handles students. If they don't get it, then they have many more ways of introducing. They're not like, "oh you don't get it? Sorry, I guess this path is not for you." Western Dzogchen people can be so f'n stuck up. F'n bullshit. I'm not one of these mahamudra practitioners who's a dzogchen apologist. I don't concede you people have a faster path. Or that your path is non-gradual. It's definitely gradual. Whether people get it is based on karma. My teacher pointed out the nature of mind in a 30 second demonstration in our second meeting. Can't says I got it right there. Dzogchen has so many ways of introducing. ChNN gives introductions all the time. Either path is perfectly capable of doing the job, immediate or gradual. So I'm tired of Dzogchen people acting like their the big boys on the block. Not. Mahamudra has the special feature of the 84 Mahasiddha lineage unbroken. That power is unmatched in the world. We have methods for realizing Mahamudra in half a day. I recognize Dzogchen people have great faith in their path and that's fine, but inflicting doubts on Mahamudra people is not going to fly with me. Dzogchen people are wide open to attack on the foundations of their lineage, so best to cut the big talk.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Jinzang » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:14 pm

The practices of dzogchen and mahamudra are similar enough that the ide of combining and reconciling the two has suggested itself to different people, like, for instance, Karma Chagme.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby username » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:22 pm

And numerous others like mahasiddha Shakya Shri in recent history who had two large camps side by side, one on each, all the way back through history to Kumaradza who taught both Longchenpa and the 3rd Karmapa:
http://www.kagyu.org.nz/content/aspirationprayer.html
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby adinatha » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:03 am

username wrote:And numerous others like mahasiddha Shakya Shri in recent history who had two large camps side by side, one on each, all the way back through history to Kumaradza who taught both Longchenpa and the 3rd Karmapa:
http://www.kagyu.org.nz/content/aspirationprayer.html


Kumaradza did not teach Mahamudra.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby username » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:32 am

adinatha wrote:
username wrote:And numerous others like mahasiddha Shakya Shri in recent history who had two large camps side by side, one on each, all the way back through history to Kumaradza who taught both Longchenpa and the 3rd Karmapa:
http://www.kagyu.org.nz/content/aspirationprayer.html


Kumaradza did not teach Mahamudra.


If you have decided to attack the protected Dzogchen lineage as I quoted your own words in the other thread, then that is your choice but why also attack the Karmapas and siddhas' actions like Shakya Shri who taught both. Again as usual you are wrong, go debate on Wiki:
And he was also versed in Maha Mudra processings of liberation from "afflictions" and "obscurations" kleshas of mind

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigdzin_Kumaradza
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:51 am

adinatha wrote:
username wrote:And numerous others like mahasiddha Shakya Shri in recent history who had two large camps side by side, one on each, all the way back through history to Kumaradza who taught both Longchenpa and the 3rd Karmapa:
http://www.kagyu.org.nz/content/aspirationprayer.html


Kumaradza did not teach Mahamudra.


Sure he did. There is an entire text devoted to Sahaja Mahamudra that cites Saraha's tradition explicitly in the Vima Nyinthig attributed to Vimalamitra.

N
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:53 am

adinatha wrote:We have methods for realizing Mahamudra in half a day.


Then teach them, don't just brag about them and lock them away in some text that is too holy to look at.

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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby heart » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:35 am

adinatha wrote:
heart wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:I understand the differences between these two paths, and I understand their similarities, but I am not sure that I understand why someone (for example YMR) would combine the two, to the point of actually practicing both.

Why would you need both?


Any ideas?


Yes, because most people don't get it when they receive direct introduction so then Mahamudra can provide a gradual path until they actually get it. I did a retreat with Mingyur Rinpoche last year, he did a number of direct Dzogchen style introductions over a weekend combined with a more Mahamudra style of leading the student gradually to an understanding of their mind and what meditation is.

/magnus


I don't think these Rime Mahamudra people do Mahamudra justice. Mahamudra has introductions that are just as immediate as Dzogchen. Mahamudra is very realistic in the way it handles students. If they don't get it, then they have many more ways of introducing. They're not like, "oh you don't get it? Sorry, I guess this path is not for you." Western Dzogchen people can be so f'n stuck up. F'n bullshit. I'm not one of these mahamudra practitioners who's a dzogchen apologist. I don't concede you people have a faster path. Or that your path is non-gradual. It's definitely gradual. Whether people get it is based on karma. My teacher pointed out the nature of mind in a 30 second demonstration in our second meeting. Can't says I got it right there. Dzogchen has so many ways of introducing. ChNN gives introductions all the time. Either path is perfectly capable of doing the job, immediate or gradual. So I'm tired of Dzogchen people acting like their the big boys on the block. Not. Mahamudra has the special feature of the 84 Mahasiddha lineage unbroken. That power is unmatched in the world. We have methods for realizing Mahamudra in half a day. I recognize Dzogchen people have great faith in their path and that's fine, but inflicting doubts on Mahamudra people is not going to fly with me. Dzogchen people are wide open to attack on the foundations of their lineage, so best to cut the big talk.


Well, I think your problem adinatha is that you don't understand Dzogchen. Suffice to say that my teacher, just like YMR, teach both Dzogchen and Mahamudra and that your idea that I am an arrogant Dzogchenpa is very misplaced. But that was not what this thread is about so I will not elaborate.

/magnus
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Pero » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:48 pm

mindyourmind wrote:
Pero wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:I understand the differences between these two paths, and I understand their similarities, but I am not sure that I understand why someone (for example YMR) would combine the two, to the point of actually practicing both.

Why would you need both?

Any ideas?

I don't understand your questions. What kind of Mahamudra are you talking about?


I would think the question remains whichever one of the three main types of Mahamudra you choose. Why practice both?

Well, the thing I don't get is, why not? There is no contradiction in practicing Dzogchen together with anything.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby narraboth » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:15 am

the great tradition of Karma Chagmed is 'the union of Dzogchen and Chagya chenpo', he called it 'enlightener's tradition'
due to the similarity of the two (at least for trekcho of Dzogchen), they can help each other to make practitioners correctly recognise and stablise it.

Talking about different approaches, that's the idea of Great Drukpa Kagyu lama Shakyasri, he separated students to two groups, as you can read in tulku Urgyen rinpoche's 'blazing splendor'. Even at that time, we think the golden time of Tibetan Buddhism, he said that there were few lamas really know how to guide students correctly with experiences on mahamudra path, not to mention the highest dzogchen path. He said there were many misunderstanding in mahamudra teaching at that time, and many unexperienced lama gave wrong meditation guidances. Dzogchen was more so: this path requires the highest quality students and the best lama, he said.
I am not sure if we are in a better time than that time. Sometimes i dare not to think that I am 'practicing Dzogchen'; although I am sure i have met some really good dzogchen masters.... it's not their problem, it's mine i believe.
actually even Dzongsar khyentse rinpoche claimed that he doesn't really know dzogchen, he insisted that he is not a dzogchen master so don't ask him about dzogchen. although I guess he was just being humble. (interesting enough, I myself heard the late Penor Rinpoche said similar things to us too)

in the end we could only measure our practice with some very basic signs: more faith, compassion, wisdom and less negative emotions. If Mahamudra or Dzogchen can't bring you those signs, maybe back to Lojong would be much more helpful.
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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby Jnana » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:47 pm

mindyourmind wrote:I would think the question remains whichever one of the three main types of Mahamudra you choose. Why practice both?

Because it enables a mahāmudrā practitioner to engage in tögal in addition to their naro chödrug dzogrim practices (provided one has the required empowerments and instructions).

All the best,

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Re: Why combine Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Postby ngodrup » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:52 pm

Seems to me the thing is, although Dzogchen is perfect, the practitioner
may be less than ideal, so studying Mahamudra is like an insurance plan.
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