Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism?

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism?

Postby Mr. G » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:17 pm

I came across the following passage in the book "The Vision of Buddhism" by the late professor Roger J. Corless:

When the shinjin has arisen, and the nembutsu says itself, it occurs jinen, spontaneously, naturally, or automatically. Jinen is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese tzu-jan, "selfly," which is a popular term in Taoism. It came to be used by Buddhists for the manner in which Buddhas do without doing. It is a more or less exact equivalent of the Tibetan lhundrup, the spontaneously activity of the Vajra Realm. The difference between Jinen and lhundrup is not in the spontaneity, but in how one obtains it. In Vajrayana, one must progress through the stages before spontaneous action takes over. Shinran found that, in his experience, Amitabha picked him up and placed him directly in the spontaneous energy mode.


Is there any merit in what he says or is he reaching quite a bit here?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
User avatar
Mr. G
 
Posts: 4098
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:50 pm

mr. gordo wrote:I came across the following passage in the book "The Vision of Buddhism" by the late professor Roger J. Corless:

When the shinjin has arisen, and the nembutsu says itself, it occurs jinen, spontaneously, naturally, or automatically. Jinen is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese tzu-jan, "selfly," which is a popular term in Taoism. It came to be used by Buddhists for the manner in which Buddhas do without doing. It is a more or less exact equivalent of the Tibetan lhundrup, the spontaneously activity of the Vajra Realm. The difference between Jinen and lhundrup is not in the spontaneity, but in how one obtains it. In Vajrayana, one must progress through the stages before spontaneous action takes over. Shinran found that, in his experience, Amitabha picked him up and placed him directly in the spontaneous energy mode.


Is there any merit in what he says or is he reaching quite a bit here?


He does not understand lhun grub.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11738
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism?

Postby Mr. G » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:16 pm

I was leaning towards that. What do you think is the best translation for lhun grub? Effortlessly naturally established? Spontaneous presence?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
User avatar
Mr. G
 
Posts: 4098
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:04 pm

mr. gordo wrote:I was leaning towards that. What do you think is the best translation for lhun grub? Effortlessly naturally established? Spontaneous presence?



depending on context either "effortless" or "naturally formed".

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 11738
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism?

Postby Pero » Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:24 pm

Namdrol wrote:depending on context either "effortless" or "naturally formed".

Tony Duff used to use "spontaneous presence" like many others still do, but recently he said it was a mistake and sent me a short dictionary explanation after I asked about his change of mind. Anyway, for him it can be translated as "spontaneously coming into existence" and also "spontaneous existence" depending on context. Interestingly he thinks self-perfection, which is used in DC, is outright wrong. This term "lhun grub" is one word for which I can see the same meaning behind whichever translation is used - natural formation, spontaneous presence, self-perfection, spontaneous existence...
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism?

Postby Mr. G » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:33 pm

Thanks Namdrol and Pero.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
User avatar
Mr. G
 
Posts: 4098
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism?

Postby username » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:39 pm

Pero wrote:self-perfection, which is used in DC, is outright wrong


Actually according to Dudjom Lingpa that is one of it's more profound inner meanings as he explains it. Duff's always in a rush in his translations.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:23 pm

Re: Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism?

Postby thigle » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:23 pm

Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism? *lol* . Yes!
This is the time of Kaliyuga, the time of great degeneration
thigle
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:46 pm
Location: Salzburg


Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Longigon, monktastic, tarchin and 18 guests

>