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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:17 pm 
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I came across the following passage in the book "The Vision of Buddhism" by the late professor Roger J. Corless:

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When the shinjin has arisen, and the nembutsu says itself, it occurs jinen, spontaneously, naturally, or automatically. Jinen is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese tzu-jan, "selfly," which is a popular term in Taoism. It came to be used by Buddhists for the manner in which Buddhas do without doing. It is a more or less exact equivalent of the Tibetan lhundrup, the spontaneously activity of the Vajra Realm. The difference between Jinen and lhundrup is not in the spontaneity, but in how one obtains it. In Vajrayana, one must progress through the stages before spontaneous action takes over. Shinran found that, in his experience, Amitabha picked him up and placed him directly in the spontaneous energy mode.


Is there any merit in what he says or is he reaching quite a bit here?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:50 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
I came across the following passage in the book "The Vision of Buddhism" by the late professor Roger J. Corless:

Quote:
When the shinjin has arisen, and the nembutsu says itself, it occurs jinen, spontaneously, naturally, or automatically. Jinen is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese tzu-jan, "selfly," which is a popular term in Taoism. It came to be used by Buddhists for the manner in which Buddhas do without doing. It is a more or less exact equivalent of the Tibetan lhundrup, the spontaneously activity of the Vajra Realm. The difference between Jinen and lhundrup is not in the spontaneity, but in how one obtains it. In Vajrayana, one must progress through the stages before spontaneous action takes over. Shinran found that, in his experience, Amitabha picked him up and placed him directly in the spontaneous energy mode.


Is there any merit in what he says or is he reaching quite a bit here?


He does not understand lhun grub.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:16 pm 
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I was leaning towards that. What do you think is the best translation for lhun grub? Effortlessly naturally established? Spontaneous presence?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:04 pm 
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mr. gordo wrote:
I was leaning towards that. What do you think is the best translation for lhun grub? Effortlessly naturally established? Spontaneous presence?



depending on context either "effortless" or "naturally formed".

N

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:24 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
depending on context either "effortless" or "naturally formed".

Tony Duff used to use "spontaneous presence" like many others still do, but recently he said it was a mistake and sent me a short dictionary explanation after I asked about his change of mind. Anyway, for him it can be translated as "spontaneously coming into existence" and also "spontaneous existence" depending on context. Interestingly he thinks self-perfection, which is used in DC, is outright wrong. This term "lhun grub" is one word for which I can see the same meaning behind whichever translation is used - natural formation, spontaneous presence, self-perfection, spontaneous existence...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:33 pm 
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Thanks Namdrol and Pero.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Pero wrote:
self-perfection, which is used in DC, is outright wrong


Actually according to Dudjom Lingpa that is one of it's more profound inner meanings as he explains it. Duff's always in a rush in his translations.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:23 pm 
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Lhundrup in Jodo Shinshu Buddhism? *lol* . Yes!


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