Thoughts

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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:50 am

Enochian wrote:It wasn't anything personal against you.

Its just that you ALL seem so confused.

For myself, it is pretty simple. I live by whats in my signature.


Ideation is by distracting by thoughts. Here is no discussion of "how is Dzogchen" as that is believing in such thoughts about. In thoughts' ideas where nature is not to find, thoughts are left in their nature. The Buddhas' genuine followers 'see' no wrong ones but perfection, purity, goodness, see us how we really are and help us to see that as well.

Thoughts are very important, is there thaught, for the simple reason: there is nature not other than idea distraction, as we leave in such dream our nature by creating, running in fictitious ideation.

Being free ( all) of suffering by wisdom and compassion. Buddhism is not to know "better than others". So is there told.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:13 am

Namdrol wrote:For example, you have to let go of letting go. You have to stop fabricating your non-fabrication. You have stop affecting your non-affectation.


Yes, that's what i wrote in my first posting. Anyway, i spent many years under hard conditions, to come to the point, that dzogchen is easy. And that was not so easy (for a practitioner, who want to 'practice' [not easy]: 'let-it-be-as-it-is'. [easy]) and very subtle, because it is also very very easy, to fall in a cittamatra view or stuff. So, i know, what you mean. But the term 'easy' in my posting, is not without a context. If you said, dzogchen is 'not easy', because it's hard to stop fabricating your non-fabrication, make this to your practice/non-practice. It's 'ok', when you can't stop fabricating your non-fabrication. How your mental condition is, is your mental condition. And this is not realy a 'practice', it's a deep decision. You can 'practice' ngöndro, but when you wanna 'practice' dzogchen, you have problems. So, sometimes rig-pa is clear, sometimes not. But in fact, this is not a problem, because you can make your 'dzogchen-practice' and 'problems' with your 'practice', to your 'view'. So, rig-pa is clear now, if you 'practice' or not. Easy (but complicated), sorry for that ;).

Or say: namu amida butsu.
Or practice Shikantaza.
It's all on the eye-level of dzogchen-mengagde.
Not necessary, to be elitist and to spread fear.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:02 pm

A state free of thoughts is not Dzogchen Men Ngag De. Thoughts are free play, creativity of nature; as the playful dance of waves of the ocean are liberated without rejection or acception.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:30 pm

thigle wrote:
Anyway, i spent many years under hard conditions, to come to the point, that dzogchen is easy. And that was not so easy (for a practitioner, who want to 'practice' [not easy]: 'let-it-be-as-it-is'. [easy]) and very subtle, because it is also very very easy, to fall in a cittamatra view or stuff. So, i know, what you mean.


You see, Dzogchen is not so easy.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:32 pm

thigle wrote:Not necessary, to be elitist and to spread fear.



It is not a question of being elitist or spreading fear. It is a question of respecting the teachings so that people actually benefit from them rather than run around with the view in the their mouth and mind full of afflictions.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:07 pm

muni wrote:A state free of thoughts is not Dzogchen Men Ngag De. Thoughts are free play, creativity of nature; as the playful dance of waves of the ocean are liberated without rejection or acception.


I did not say in any way on any place, that a state 'free of thoughts' is mengagde :shock:.

namdrol wrote:You see, Dzogchen is not so easy.


You see, it's not easy to be easy.

namdrol wrote:It is not a question of being elitist or spreading fear. It is a question of respecting the teachings so that people actually benefit from them rather than run around with the view in the their mouth and mind full of afflictions.


When it's a question of respecting the teachings, so that people actually benefit from them, rather than run around with the view in their mouth and mind full of afflictions, then- wonderful, dito. But when it is a question of being elitist and spreading fear- problem. A big problem of tibetan buddhism. But that's another topic.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:04 am

A passing flatulance pff regarding the coarse thought free states of different practices. Often it is seen as merely "no thought". But thoughts here (Dzogchen) can be very useful when we aren't their slave/aren't them and so not painful swim in resulting obscured/distrurbed/afflicted stories.

We can be free of these.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sönam » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:43 am

Image
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:58 am

muni wrote:A passing flatulance pff regarding the coarse thought free states of different practices. Often it is seen as merely "no thought". But thoughts here (Dzogchen) can be very useful when we aren't their slave/aren't them and so not painful swim in resulting obscured/distrurbed/afflicted stories. We can be free of these.


Shikantaza or Jinen has nothing to do with a ' pff state free of thoughts'.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:45 am

thigle wrote:
muni wrote:A passing flatulance pff regarding the coarse thought free states of different practices. Often it is seen as merely "no thought". But thoughts here (Dzogchen) can be very useful when we aren't their slave/aren't them and so not painful swim in resulting obscured/distrurbed/afflicted stories. We can be free of these.


Shikantaza or Jinen has nothing to do with a ' pff state free of thoughts'.


There are places to share about Shikantaza.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:14 pm

This is a good place, to share something about buddhism muni. Or is there any 'attachment' on 'dzogchen'?

It is not easy to be easy. Dzogchen is easy. But to practice Dzogchen, is not easy. Because, Dzogchen is no practice, Dzogchen is your life. It is not a practice on one side and a practitioner on the other side. When Dzogchen is a 'practice', its not easy for the practitioner to-be-easy. To-be-easy is beyond meditation or non-meditation. To-be-easy means: Dzogchen. To-be-easy transcends subject and object. To-be-easy means, whetever appears, it is perfect as-it-is. You don't need to 'practice' anything, but you can practice, because everything is-as-it-is.

All we must learn, is to be easy. And this is hard for us. When there is no distinction between such things like your mind or the world, because it doesn't matter, you are very easy. Then all is a mandala.

When some people said, Dzogchen is not easy, they tell the people lies. When they said, Dzogchen is not easy, they promote a wrong view, and this wrong view implicated such things as 'effort', 'practice', 'to-do-something-special', and stuff. But this is not the Dzogchen view. This is vipassana. When you say, Dzogchen is easy, the pupil is easy. That's near on the 'view'. When you say to people, Dzogchen is subtle, you make a mistake: "Oh, it's subtle. When you show me the 'view', then this 'view' is very subtle! I must look good, right? It's soooo subtle, to difference... ma, bu and tsal. I must look goooood. And I must make a difference. Because, it's 'subtle'... . This is not Dzogchen. It is much better, you promote:

How your mental condition is, is your mental condition. If you think it's ok. If you don't think, it's ok. If you are angry, it's ok. So, do this: How your mental condition is, is your mental condition. Let everything as it is. Now it's clear, everything is as it is. So- you can let go the activity of let-go. Come back, as you are before this activity. Be Natural.

Now, all is self-clear. It is now self-clear, that everything has 'no-core'. Everything is a 'appearance'. And that, through which you know that everything has 'no-core', is the same like the 'no-core'. But that, 'trough-you-know', is not a 'knowing' through a conditional consciousness. It is 'bu', the son, the not-conditional awareness, which is not in any way distinct from 'ma', the mother, the 'no-core'. so, everything is a expression of this 'union'.

But- you don't think that. You do not search for ma, bu and tsal. It 'comes-from-itself'. This is not vipassana and stuff. Everything what appears now, is good-as-it-is. Because, nothing has a 'core'. Everything appears, like the picture on a mirror. The mirror himself is not attached from the picture. All is 'open' now- everything can appear. Thoughts or no thoughts, it doesn't matter.

This is the same, like hishiryō in Soto-Zen, in the practice of Zazen. And this is also like 'Jin' in Shin. Pure, natural, easy, direct, beyond practice or non-practice. Dzogchen has nothing to do with 'search-for-a-thought-see-it-has-no-color-or-shape-so-now-rest-in-this'. This is much more like cittamatra-view, not the dzogchen-view. It's a good practice for preliminarys, but not 'the-view'. You come to this view, only through mengagde. only in mengagde, you have lhun-grub. Not in semde, not in longde. Semde or longde are for people, who wanna search for anything. So it's good to have these series. But, what is the point, last but not least?

It is, there is nothing to find. And that's what the pupil have to learn. Nothing to find, so: all is-as-it-is. There is nothing to find, or to do. So GIVE UP to searching or finding. Give up, and all is-as-it-is. Now, you don't must let-all-as-it-is. When you give up, and all is now as it is, it is naturally as-it-is. Without YOU must 'do this'. But if you cant 'give-up', then let-all-as-it-is. Then give up your 'let'.

In the context of shin-buddhism, a (in tibetan terms, 'higher' view, because it's much more easier (look at bible, Lukas 14:11 *lol*) the life himself learn you to 'give up'. shin is a very direct, imho one of the most direct 'ways' (it's not realy a way) to a open dharmakaya. But most of the people i know, this 'way' is to easy. so easy, it's not realy a 'way'. But this people want it not-easy, because they are not-easy-people. And this is ok. So you can see, it's easy.

If nobody belief what i write here in this text with my broken english- please: Don't believe me!. It's ok. How your mental condition is, is your mental condition. You can do this now (active), and then 'give up', or you simply: 'don't belief me'! Now, -"you-don't-belief-me"- is like a picture in the mirror. Now it's clear: It is ok! You. Me. Everything. But you do not 'think' that. It is spontaneously, self-open, not a construct form your conditioned consciousness. This is bodhichitta, which is the natural state.

So, what is the big secret in Dzogchen? Right my friend, there is no secret. Dzogchen is no secret, Dzogchen is easy. Dzogchen do not need a 'protection' or a 'protector'. Not from you and you or you and you or tantric magic. The tibetan secret about Dzogchen is: Dzochen has no secret. They wanna bind you. Mara wanna bind you. So, Dzogchen is a secret and must be protected. Bad karma für the tibetans. But dzogchen is great!

Thx.

Namu Amida Butsu
Last edited by thigle on Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:33 pm

thigle wrote:
So, what is the big secret in Dzogchen?


If someone wishes to practice Dzogchen, they must find a guru who teaches it correctly. Otherwise, "Dzogchen" is just a bunch meaningless albeit pretty words. In other words, no Dzogchen Guru, no Dzogchen practice.

Your grudge against Tibetans is unjustified. Tibetan Gurus have taught everything there is to teach about Dzoghen to those who have been fortunate enough and interested enough to seek out and learn Dzogchen teachings.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Mr. G » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:46 pm

thigle wrote:To-be-easy means, whetever appears, it is perfect as-it-is. You don't need to 'practice' anything, but you can practice, because everything is-as-it-is.



How does this differ from how modern Advaita-Vedanta is practiced today? It's all talk, with no methods....verbal masturbation a'la sastang. I mean, if that's the case, I just need to become knowledgeable in Madhyamaka, and that's it....just continue sitting on my butt surfing Reditt with nothing else to do.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:47 pm

Namdrol wrote:
thigle wrote:
So, what is the big secret in Dzogchen?

In other words, no Dzogchen Guru, no Dzogchen practice.


Don't tell the people lies, my friend.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Mr. G » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:49 pm

thigle wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
thigle wrote:
So, what is the big secret in Dzogchen?

In other words, no Dzogchen Guru, no Dzogchen practice.


Don't tell the people lies, my friend.



This is true. Are you saying you've achieved the results of Dzogchen without a Guru?
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:13 pm

thigle wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
thigle wrote:
So, what is the big secret in Dzogchen?

In other words, no Dzogchen Guru, no Dzogchen practice.


Don't tell the people lies, my friend.


Gimme a break. Without the pointing out instruction there's no Dzogchen, period. You can call it whatever you like but you'll be wrong.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:38 pm

thigle wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
thigle wrote:
So, what is the big secret in Dzogchen?

In other words, no Dzogchen Guru, no Dzogchen practice.


Don't tell the people lies, my friend.


It is in the original texts of Dzogchen, so what to say. A guru is indispensable for Dzogchen. If one should proclaim otherwise, one would be telling lies.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:54 pm

Last but not least, the only authentic dzogchen-mengagde book, you become public, is this. I don't wanna go from here, without these pointer ;).
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:02 pm

thigle wrote:Last but not least, the only authentic dzogchen-mengagde book, you become public, is this. I don't wanna go from here, without these pointer ;).



You cannot learn Dzogchen from a book.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10188
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:08 pm

Right, you can only learn dzogchen from a book or text ;). And: "It is in the original texts of Dzogchen, so what to say". Hm. Anyway. It's better the people read authentic mengagde texts, not all this other partial-dzogchen-stuff on the free market- promotes only wrong views. Like me (for you.. and you..and you.. but one.. i see one... the text helps him very much to be free...).

So, i say byby my friends! :)
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