Thoughts

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Re: Thoughts

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:21 pm

Enochian wrote:This thread is why I am not a Dzogchen practitioner.

Its not that complicated. Read my sig.


Nothing could be simpler than recognizing and resting in the nature of mind.

That's why it's so difficult.

:tongue:
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:38 pm

Enochian wrote:This thread is why I am not a Dzogchen practitioner.

Its not that complicated. Read my sig.


Tashi delek,

Please explain why you are not a Dzogchen practitioner.

Is the reason why, that you are not used to some Dzogchen words / practice,

- Or is it too complicated for you what i did wrote?
- Or is it not so complicated like i did write, according your opinion?
- What is too much complicated to you, regarding my last reply ?

Thanks at beforehand for your attention,

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Enochian » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:18 pm

It wasn't anything personal against you.

Its just that you ALL seem so confused.

For myself, it is pretty simple. I live by whats in my signature.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:14 pm

Enochian wrote:It wasn't anything personal against you.

Its just that you ALL seem so confused.

For myself, it is pretty simple. I live by whats in my signature.


Sry for my very, very bad english.

Dzogchen is easy. It has nothing to do with 'searching and finding' (of thoughts and stuff).
1. You are sad? be sad. How your mental condition is, is your mental condition. You sit? sit. Let everything as it is (like the 4 chog-zhag). Active.
2. Then, let this 'activity' go (because, everything _is_ as it is. You can't _do_ it- so, let this activity go).
3. Now, nature of mind appears (ma, bu, tsal). Spontaneously. _You_ can't _make, search or find it.
All-is-good-as-it-is. All-is-perfect. But- _you_ don't _think_ that.
It is not a fabrication from your conditional consciousness.

namu amida butsu
thigle ;)
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:33 pm

thigle wrote:Dzogchen is easy.


If Dzogchen were easy, there would not be so many dickheads.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:42 pm

Namdrol wrote:
thigle wrote:Dzogchen is easy.


If Dzogchen were easy, there would not be so many dickheads.


Yes..for dickheads, easiness seems too complicated ;). But we have ngöndro, so, no problem.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:31 pm

thigle wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
thigle wrote:Dzogchen is easy.


If Dzogchen were easy, there would not be so many dickheads.


Yes..for dickheads, easiness seems too complicated ;). But we have ngöndro, so, no problem.



I don't know, when someone like Chogyal Namkhai Norbu says Dzogchen is "...not so easy", I tend to believe him.

Dzogchen is easy to say, but the real test is whether one's afflictions have decreased. If not, then one's "Dzogchen" is not working to well.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Thoughts

Postby heart » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:34 pm

Namdrol wrote:I don't know, when someone like Chogyal Namkhai Norbu says Dzogchen is "...not so easy", I tend to believe him.

Dzogchen is easy to say, but the real test is whether one's afflictions have decreased. If not, then one's "Dzogchen" is not working to well.

N


That is the truth. You echo the words of my Guru as he thought the "three words" to us the other day.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:02 pm

It is unaffected. And that's so hard for us. We want it complicated. Because, we wanna do this or that. Wanna search and find anything. So, we have a lot of tools... . But when you think, it is complicated, let it be complicated, as practice :). This is yermed, where dzogchen begins.
Last edited by thigle on Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:13 pm

thigle wrote:It is unaffected. And that's so hard for us. But when you think, it is complicated, let it be complicated, as practice :)


I did not say that Dzogchen was complicated. Dzogchen is "simple". But it is not easy. Most of the people who study Dzogchen have no fracking clue what Dzogchen actually is...especially those who claim it is easy.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:28 pm

Namdrol wrote:
thigle wrote:It is unaffected. And that's so hard for us. But when you think, it is complicated, let it be complicated, as practice :)


I did not say that Dzogchen was complicated. Dzogchen is "simple". But it is not easy. Most of the people who study Dzogchen have no fracking clue what Dzogchen actually is...especially those who claim it is easy.

N


If dzogchen is simple, why we have so many dickheads? But i think, it's a language problem from my side. In german, 'easy', or easiness (einfach / Einfachheit) can be in the context of 'unaffected' or 'natural'.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Fa Dao » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:41 pm

So far as a newbie I have found Dzogchen to be quite simple and direct. Garab Dorje and ChNN lay it all out very nicely. Definitely NOT easy though. Does require a certain amount of relaxed persistence. Still occasionally have that pesky feeling that I should be DOING something if I want to progress...but supposedly that will dissolve into itself eventually too.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Thoughts

Postby thigle » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:02 pm

I see- it is not easy to be easy. But it is simple, to be simple (in english) :)
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:17 am

thigle wrote:
If dzogchen is simple, why we have so many dickheads?


Because even though Dzogchen is simple, it is extremely subtle.

For example, you have to let go of letting go. You have to stop fabricating your non-fabrication.

You have stop affecting your non-affectation.

I know many, many so called Dzogchen practitioners in DC and elsewhere, both teachers and students. All of them are still, to some degree or another, under the influence of their emotions, their physical bodies, their karma and their circumstances.

So the problem is not with the teachings, the teachings are perfect. The problem is with the practitioners. And the problem is in general that Dzogchen is far more subtle than students understand. The teachers know this, which is why they continue to encourage people not to think that Dzogchen is something so easy. Even a teaching like dependent origination is very subtle. How much more so is Dzogchen, which is where the teaching of dependent origination leads one in the end.

So, Dzogchen words are simple, but their meaning is extremely subtle, and the practice of Dzogchen is not so easy. If you tell people otherwise, you are acting like a Mara.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:23 am

Fa Dao wrote:So far as a newbie I have found Dzogchen to be quite simple and direct. Garab Dorje and ChNN lay it all out very nicely. Definitely NOT easy though. Does require a certain amount of relaxed persistence. Still occasionally have that pesky feeling that I should be DOING something if I want to progress...but supposedly that will dissolve into itself eventually too.



You are like a person who has smelled some wood that has been lying on the ground in a sandal wood forest, but does not realize it is just common wood. When the scent wears off you will realize you still need to get real sandalwood.

And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:44 am

Namdrol,
thank you. Unlike others that I have seen on this forum I know you are not saying these things to be a dickhead. Help me out here. If I am missing something or not understanding something please dont just point out that I am clueless, tell me how and why I am clueless and how I can correct it and get the proper understanding. If you prefer to do that in private PM me, if not tell me in the open forum.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:29 am

Fa Dao wrote:Namdrol,
thank you. Unlike others that I have seen on this forum I know you are not saying these things to be a dickhead. Help me out here. If I am missing something or not understanding something please dont just point out that I am clueless, tell me how and why I am clueless and how I can correct it and get the proper understanding. If you prefer to do that in private PM me, if not tell me in the open forum.


It is easy to get the scent of Dzogchen. But in reality, understanding Dzogchen is much harder. The biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen is thinking that we understand it. I do not mean it is impossible to understand Dzogchen, of course it is possible, but that understanding can really only be predicated on personal experience, and it is the extremely rare person who can understand Dzogchen based on a few teaching and a couple of months of practice. Most of us need to spend ten or twenty years.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:49 am

So, I am not necessarily on the wrong track just need more time with it all? Getting more exposure to ChNN and the teachings, in other words more immersion? I am doing my best to follow everything he has said in his books, Crystal and the Way of Light and the Mirror as well as the teachings I have heard. Also of course doing Guruyoga with the white A and the SoV numerous times every day. Unfortunately my book order has still not arrived yet, 6 weeks and counting.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:42 am

Enochian wrote:It wasn't anything personal against you.

Its just that you ALL seem so confused.

For myself, it is pretty simple. I live by whats in my signature.
For somebody that neither practices nor has a teacher you sure make a lot of judgements and statements about dzogchen practitioners and practice!

Back to the point!

I would say that the correct term to use in regards to Dzogchen (and Mahamudra) method is that it is "uncomplicated" (rather than "simple", which also has connotations of "easy"). It doesn't have all the ritual complications like: "how many times do I ring the bell?", "does the little finger on the left hand point in or out during the mudra?", "when exactly do I throw the torma and in which direction?", "what exactly is the deity holding in their fifth hand from the top on the left, no-no their left not my left?!" etc...

Coz it certainly is not easy!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Clarence » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:03 am

Namdrol wrote:It is easy to get the scent of Dzogchen. But in reality, understanding Dzogchen is much harder. The biggest obstacle to understanding Dzogchen is thinking that we understand it. I do not mean it is impossible to understand Dzogchen, of course it is possible, but that understanding can really only be predicated on personal experience, and it is the extremely rare person who can understand Dzogchen based on a few teaching and a couple of months of practice. Most of us need to spend ten or twenty years. N

When you talk about personal experience, do you mean the experiene of Rigpa/Nature of mind or are you talking about more? Does one really need to spend 10 to 20 years to get Rigpa? Guess what I am actually asking is what it means to understand Dzogchen?
I have had a few teachings and still feel clueless, so I guess that is a good thing then. :smile:
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