Dharma Wheel

"Tibetan Buddhism" in the west has the particularity to condition the practitioner to integrate first a part of the Tibetan/Bön culture before he could start to realize what is that all about. This is simply because Tibetan Buddhism is an application of the Buddhadharma adapted to Tibet/Bön, not to westerners.
In that particular matter, Dzogchen tradition is much more adapted to the west when it is not so much wraped into classical tantrism traditions.

Sönam

We must be careful not to confuse culture and cultural accretions with tradition. The two are not always the same.

But in general I suppose I agree with you. A balancing act is called for : enough tradition but not too much of the unnecessary baggage. Therein lies the challenge.

To me, Buddhism is not about Culture, though Culture tries endlessly to make it be. I think Ponlop Rinpoche hit the nail on the head:
"..my various experiences have led me to see the almost blinding influence of culture in our lives and thus the importance of seeing beyond culture altogether." (Rebel Buddha)

I agree. In the asian country I live and practice in, if I was going to point to the problems that currently exist in Buddhism here, I would point directly to Cultural influence--of the native culture--and this country has a long 'tradition'.

"seeing beyond culture altogether" right on.

john
(not a tibetan practitioner)

Sönam wrote:"Tibetan Buddhism" in the west has the particularity to condition the practitioner to integrate first a part of the Tibetan/Bön culture before he could start to realize what is that all about. This is simply because Tibetan Buddhism is an application of the Buddhadharma adapted to Tibet/Bön, not to westerners.
In that particular matter, Dzogchen tradition is much more adapted to the west when it is not so much wraped into classical tantrism traditions.

Sönam

Tashi delek,

Yes, i agree Dzogchen can be practiced without a Tantrical background or without Tantra.
Dzogchen is not per se based on Tantra, like i did study.

Further if we practice Dzogchen one is automaticly involved in the vision of the lineage.
If the lineage would be contra something then the students, westerners or not share that specific mentality.

I go even so far with some Tibetan lineage mentalities, that i cannot take that all serious because to the lamas were since 100 of years told a certain " truth " .
And so they all act in some way according the mentality of their tradition.

There are only few who dare to have an own vision about that all, some are now the so called rebels but will later become the heroes......

Best wishes
KY

That "westerner-adapted-form" should come first from our Tibetan masters, because they detain the lineage of "teachings and realizations", and this what has to be transmited at first, not the specific Tibetain or Westerner coloration.
finally westerners will participate to that adaptation in creating statistics in favor of one or another unlightened author from the past ... at first it is the role of Translators to adapt the dharma, they play a major role in that process ... the first generation of Tibetan kids educated in both languages should strongly help in that process, but how many are ready for ?

Sönam

kalden yungdrung wrote: ...
Further if we practice Dzogchen one is automaticly involved in the vision of the lineage.
If the lineage would be contra something then the students, westerners or not share that specific mentality.

lineage's habits ... but "The Brave" do not fall in that trap !

I go even so far with some Tibetan lineage mentalities, that i cannot take that all serious because the lamas were since 100 of years told a certain " truth " .
And so they all act in some way according the mentality of their tradition.

thinks are changing, westerners start to be "educated" ... on a Tibetan Point of View.

Sönam

Sönam wrote:

kalden yungdrung wrote: ...
Further if we practice Dzogchen one is automaticly involved in the vision of the lineage.
If the lineage would be contra something then the students, westerners or not share that specific mentality.

lineage's habits ... but "The Brave" do not fall in that trap !

You should join the buddhabrats, its anonymous leader seem very inclined in your direction.

I ignored Sascha’s doubts about the validity of what I was doing. He was rather hung up on the lineage thing, needing an official stamp of approval from the orthodoxy in order to spread the Teachings. Either way I was going to do it and nothing could have brought me more pleasure. Hacking and demolishing the residual patterning from people’s heads accompanied with liberal doses of Dzogchen, I proceeded to cut a swathe through a sea of sentient ignorance. I was totally in my element - this was truly what I had been designed for.

http://www.buddhabrats.com/3-free-chapt ... holy-land/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

/magnus

If we look to the history of Buddhism we will find that the adaptation from one culture to another seems to be a natural organic process. This is one of Buddhisms natural strengths over other religions...it adapts easily to other cultures. This, I believe, is due to its universal and humanistic message. Look for example at the foundational Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. All beings suffer, all is due to grasping/attachment etc etc. This has to do with the human condition, not culture. Same goes when we go a little higher to the teachings of Shunyata/Emptiness...once again has more to do with Reality than culture. And so it goes right up to and through Vajrayana...the transformation of whatever arises into its Wisdom aspect. In every culture that Buddhism went to, regardless of the culture, it adapted and grew, and it will in the west as well. No worries.

Vis a vis this thread, some might want to consider the following interview with Dungse Thinley Norbu:

http://www.tricycle.com/special-section ... u-rinpoche" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In this interview, He is very critical of those who seek to "Westernize" Tibetan Buddhism. Whether you agree with His POV or not, I found it very thought-provoking (hopefully in a good way).

pemachophel wrote:Vis a vis this thread, some might want to consider the following interview with Dungse Thinley Norbu:

http://www.tricycle.com/special-section ... u-rinpoche" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In this interview, He is very critical of those who seek to "Westernize" Tibetan Buddhism. Whether you agree with His POV or not, I found it very thought-provoking (hopefully in a good way).

Refreshing is the word that comes to mind.

/magnus

Sönam wrote:

kalden yungdrung wrote: ...
Further if we practice Dzogchen one is automaticly involved in the vision of the lineage.
If the lineage would be contra something then the students, westerners or not share that specific mentality.

lineage's habits ... but "The Brave" do not fall in that trap !

To be clear, "Brave" is not for westerners, but for lineage masters who do not fall in that trap (lineage habits)

Sönam

pemachophel wrote:Vis a vis this thread, some might want to consider the following interview with Dungse Thinley Norbu:

http://www.tricycle.com/special-section ... u-rinpoche" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In this interview, He is very critical of those who seek to "Westernize" Tibetan Buddhism. Whether you agree with His POV or not, I found it very thought-provoking (hopefully in a good way).

Of course to be fair HH Thinley Norbu upsets everyone's apple carts.

Kirt

..and thank goodness for that, eh?

Buddha upset more than a few apple carts himself.

Sönam wrote:"Tibetan Buddhism" in the west has the particularity to condition the practitioner to integrate first a part of the Tibetan/Bön culture before he could start to realize what is that all about.

Tibetan Buddhism is alleged by Tibetans to be the preservation of the Sravakayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana as presented in India around the 6th century AD (really 6th-12th centuries). So it is really a flavor of pan-Indian Buddhism clearly with Tibetan influences.

Bön is probably more directly Tibetan but it too has necessarily undergone changes over time.

This is simply because Tibetan Buddhism is an application of the Buddhadharma adapted to Tibet/Bön, not to westerners.
In that particular matter, Dzogchen tradition is much more adapted to the west when it is not so much wraped into classical tantrism traditions.

Well all Buddhism is necessarily rooted in India at some point. This is less clear in Chinese and Japanese Buddhism and maybe other Buddhisms.

At the end of the day, Indian tantric Buddhism and without question Mahayana and Sravakayana are well suited for the West. It's just not apparent yet. But just like the Tibetans to Atisha - everyone has a mind (everyone dreams). We can begin on this basis.

It would just be helpful if the Asian and esp. Himalayan teachers were more direct in general. I was told by a senior student that Tibetan teachers thought they were testing Westerners a la Padmasambhava and the first seven monks and the first 25 disciples. Well, we weren't there yet. Maybe now.

Kirt

conebeckham wrote:..and thank goodness for that, eh?

Buddha upset more than a few apple carts himself.

Kirt

Sönam wrote:

Sönam wrote:

kalden yungdrung wrote: ...
Further if we practice Dzogchen one is automaticly involved in the vision of the lineage.
If the lineage would be contra something then the students, westerners or not share that specific mentality.

lineage's habits ... but "The Brave" do not fall in that trap !

To be clear, "Brave" is not for westerners, but for lineage masters who do not fall in that trap (lineage habits)

Sönam

If you are a "lineage master" you are the lineage, your own bad if you don't get this.

/magnus

To be clear...I am not talking about "westernizing" TB or any sect of Buddhism for that matter. Sadly in his interview HH Thinley Norbu was correct in saying that there are western teachers who are nihilistic in their approach. However I really dont see a problem with doing various liturgies/sadhanas in English. Excluding of course certain mantras etc that due to their vibrational quality need to be done in their original form. Unless one really wants to learn Tibetan (or Chinese or Japanese for that matter) it is pointless to have a person chant a liturgy/sadhana in a language that they have no idea what it is they are chanting. I mean seriously, whats the point?

Sönam wrote:classical tantrism traditions.

But I like classical tantra traditions...

Namdrol wrote:

Sönam wrote:classical tantrism traditions.

But I like classical tantra traditions...

/magnus

pemachophel wrote:Vis a vis this thread, some might want to consider the following interview with Dungse Thinley Norbu:

http://www.tricycle.com/special-section ... u-rinpoche" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In this interview, He is very critical of those who seek to "Westernize" Tibetan Buddhism. Whether you agree with His POV or not, I found it very thought-provoking (hopefully in a good way).

Agree completely! Or maybe dharmata will be improved by arrogantly knowing. Nothing new to obtain by new fabrications other than minds' delusions. Our nature/ Dzogchen is free from characteristics.

Lets our nature adapt a bit to fit ego. Western nature, Eastern nature........