Tradition in the West

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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby Adamantine » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:34 pm

Fa Dao wrote:To be clear...I am not talking about "westernizing" TB or any sect of Buddhism for that matter. Sadly in his interview HH Thinley Norbu was correct in saying that there are western teachers who are nihilistic in their approach. However I really dont see a problem with doing various liturgies/sadhanas in English. Excluding of course certain mantras etc that due to their vibrational quality need to be done in their original form. Unless one really wants to learn Tibetan (or Chinese or Japanese for that matter) it is pointless to have a person chant a liturgy/sadhana in a language that they have no idea what it is they are chanting. I mean seriously, whats the point?


Most lineage masters agree.. Thinley Norbu himself writes about
this in A Cascading Warerfall of Nectar, clearly saying that Dharma
is and should not be limited to any one language..
However, many of these practices have a certain meter to them,
not to mention melody (especially some practices like Troma, Chod,etc)
which are difficult and outright ackward to translate properly
into English and retain the meter and melody (which in some practices
also specifically is intended to affect the winds)..
So in these cases it helps to study the texts deeply, if possible
memorize them, and then have the meaning innately present in ones
mind so there's no need to try reading two lines
simultaneously. Most short daily practices are easy to simply do
in English though. Eventually, I am sure some
people will be able to translate the different functions
properly along with the meaning. I know one person who is doing
this now with the short Dudjom tersar ngondro.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby Fa Dao » Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:41 pm

Adamantine...exactly what I meant..certain mantras etc due to vibrational quality, or as you said meter etc are best left as is.

Namdrol...dude, that guy is REALLY scary looking..like Night of the living Dead scary...where do you find these pics anyways?
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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:10 am

Fa Dao wrote:Adamantine...exactly what I meant..certain mantras etc due to vibrational quality, or as you said meter etc are best left as is.

Namdrol...dude, that guy is REALLY scary looking..like Night of the living Dead scary...where do you find these pics anyways?



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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby heart » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:52 am

Adamantine wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:To be clear...I am not talking about "westernizing" TB or any sect of Buddhism for that matter. Sadly in his interview HH Thinley Norbu was correct in saying that there are western teachers who are nihilistic in their approach. However I really dont see a problem with doing various liturgies/sadhanas in English. Excluding of course certain mantras etc that due to their vibrational quality need to be done in their original form. Unless one really wants to learn Tibetan (or Chinese or Japanese for that matter) it is pointless to have a person chant a liturgy/sadhana in a language that they have no idea what it is they are chanting. I mean seriously, whats the point?


Most lineage masters agree.. Thinley Norbu himself writes about
this in A Cascading Warerfall of Nectar, clearly saying that Dharma
is and should not be limited to any one language..
However, many of these practices have a certain meter to them,
not to mention melody (especially some practices like Troma, Chod,etc)
which are difficult and outright ackward to translate properly
into English and retain the meter and melody (which in some practices
also specifically is intended to affect the winds)..
So in these cases it helps to study the texts deeply, if possible
memorize them, and then have the meaning innately present in ones
mind so there's no need to try reading two lines
simultaneously. Most short daily practices are easy to simply do
in English though. Eventually, I am sure some
people will be able to translate the different functions
properly along with the meaning. I know one person who is doing
this now with the short Dudjom tersar ngondro.


Erik is also re-translating some prayer books inspired by among others Thinly Norbu, he is making them singable in English. I understand there is a huge amount of effort as the meaning can't change the words still have to change.

/magnus
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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby muni » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:06 am

Even through weldone translations, sem magician manage to see words through colored veils of culture habits, education in you must be strong ( sea drop on the beach) and independent like Rinpoche says in that dialogue and so on. Then faith, devotion, Guru, compassion, are a huge attack on concept ego....."I know and have all under control-defendence". Dharma words are tools for wisdom, not for " lets see what I, I think about; investigations by coarse thought. About words and the influences of how we see them I got a talk this week; many words are very very difficult to translate with correct meaning.

Still very grateful for translators! Not possible by these generosity to fit all habits.

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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby Indrajala » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:38 am

Fa Dao wrote:Adamantine...exactly what I meant..certain mantras etc due to vibrational quality, or as you said meter etc are best left as is.

Namdrol...dude, that guy is REALLY scary looking..like Night of the living Dead scary...where do you find these pics anyways?


Not all Sadhus look like that. Here is one I saw at Vulture's Peak in India:

Image

He was just quietly reciting a text to himself and smiled my way, alright with his photo being taken.

Sadhus in India are generally pretty cool. They ride the trains for free, too. Nobody asks them for their ticket. My Indian friend also explained to me that in many cases cops leave them alone.
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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby Sönam » Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:56 am

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Sönam wrote:classical tantrism traditions.


But I like classical tantra traditions...
Image


:smile:

/magnus


I like it too ... like my grandma's shell-shaped cookies. She knew how to make them !

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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby username » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:49 pm

I think the sadhu with the skull is an Aghori, darker left handed approach who mainly practice in cemeteries and charnel grounds like the old Tibetan Chodpas but they engage in anything from orgies to cannibalism and usually are known by their black clothes. People usually keep away from them fearing curses. On the other hand, good old ganacakra days, one might say!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori

Image

scroll down for interesting photos:
http://www.google.com/search?q=sadhus&u ... 80&bih=917

http://www.google.com/search?q=kumbh+me ... 80&bih=917
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby Pero » Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:35 pm

I wonder what these guys talk about when they get together like that. :jumping:
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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:31 pm

Pero wrote:I wonder what these guys talk about when they get together like that. :jumping:


Girls...
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby username » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:43 pm

and ganja.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby Adamantine » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:47 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:I wonder what these guys talk about when they get together like that. :jumping:


Girls...

:lol: and sports ... (the boulder-lifting penis variety)
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby Indrajala » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:05 pm

username wrote:I think the sadhu with the skull is an Aghori, darker left handed approach who mainly practice in cemeteries and charnel grounds like the old Tibetan Chodpas but they engage in anything from orgies to cannibalism and usually are known by their black clothes. People usually keep away from them fearing curses. On the other hand, good old ganacakra days, one might say!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori

Image

scroll down for interesting photos:
http://www.google.com/search?q=sadhus&u ... 80&bih=917

http://www.google.com/search?q=kumbh+me ... 80&bih=917






Jain monks are an interesting lot, too. They don't wear clothes, remove their hair and beard by pulling it out (no razors, though not all do) and walk around with a peacock feather fan sweeping ahead of them so as not to step on any living thing.

Image
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Re: Tradition in the West

Postby username » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:19 pm

Huseng wrote:Jain monks are an interesting lot, too. They don't wear clothes, remove their hair and beard by pulling it out (no razors, though not all do) and walk around with a peacock feather fan sweeping ahead of them so as not to step on any living thing.

Image


That is true and often cover their mouths not to swallow small flying insects. It is believed Shakyamuni sent back a Jain who wanted to follow him to his own teacher/founder who is believed to have been contemporary. No other such case as far as I know. Also the Sikhs are believed to have emanated to defend against the Muslim invaders who wanted to convert by force all of India and Himalayas and threaten Tibet too. Apparently some TB masters reincarnate as their masters from time to time such as Chagdud Rinpoche in a previous lifetime IIRC. We have good relations with them. Also the Himalayan martial races of Gurkhas (probably the best soldiers in the world to this day as many experts believe) and Sherpas functioned in that capacity as intended. But the uber peaceful Jains are very close to us in doctrine and all Buddhists should respect them specially as they are very much reduced in numbers unfortunately.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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