nirvana impermanent

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nirvana impermanent

Postby Sönam » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:42 am

Excuse my ignorance but I would like to clarify one point ... from Dzogchen point of view.
Hinayana nirvana, from the POV of mahayana is impermanent, because the Arhat is supposed not to rebirth and let beings to their sufferings he would have to reincarnate ...
From the strict pov of vajrayana, nirvana is said to be permanent, also subtle stains still remind ... next step being to acquire buddha's omniscience.
But because of specific Dzogchen view of samsara and nirvana being of same taste, and rigpa and ma'rigpa, what is the Dzogchen pov on nirvana ?

thank you for your kind answers
Sönam
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:02 am

Sönam wrote:Excuse my ignorance but I would like to clarify one point ... from Dzogchen point of view.
Hinayana nirvana, from the POV of mahayana is impermanent, because the Arhat is supposed not to rebirth and let beings to their sufferings he would have to reincarnate ...
From the strict pov of vajrayana, nirvana is said to be permanent, also subtle stains still remind ... next step being to acquire buddha's omniscience.
But because of specific Dzogchen view of samsara and nirvana being of same taste, and rigpa and ma'rigpa, what is the Dzogchen pov on nirvana ?

thank you for your kind answers
Sönam


Tashi delek,

Nirvana is a word used to point to liberation for the one who is looking for liberating illusion or karma. This is based on dualisms like good and bad.
So the methods are here purifying etc.

In Dzogchen, everything like good and bad (words are used here to explain but are not relevant expressions within Dzogchen), are present in the Natural State.
Some made good and bad of that base, and that would be called Ma rigpa.

Nirvana in Dzogchen, is present in the Natural State or to be in that state is to be in Nirvana and Samsara, because there doesn't exist duality in Dzogchen.
But if we live in duality with karma etc. a Dzogchenpa uses the word Nirvana for others to explain there is a goal to reach. It explains the other party also that he/she is dwelling in Samsara or in illusion / Ma rigpa and so the solution (fruit) coming out is here according their path Nirvana.

So all in all, Nirvana is a word with a meaning and not a place where one can stay and like all words are they based on illusion or empty.

Hope this helps

Mutsog Marro
KY

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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:19 am

Since we like to go the the essence, there is nirvana for oneself, nirvana for everyone and nirvana that has no concepts, which is no nirvana or samsara. There is no such a thing as impermanent nirvana. A nirvana for oneself has limited power. A nirvana for everyone has great power. A nirvana of concepts has unlimited power. There are those explanations and schemes that says hearers will be awakened by Buddha and told they have more to practice, and things about time and space having something to do with it. My feeling is this cannot be believed. If we go to the essence of meaning, we understand how a center and boundary at the beginning of the path changes the energy. No center or boundary unlimits the energy.
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:57 am

adinatha wrote:Since we like to go the the essence, there is nirvana for oneself, nirvana for everyone and nirvana that has no concepts, which is no nirvana or samsara. There is no such a thing as impermanent nirvana. A nirvana for oneself has limited power. A nirvana for everyone has great power. A nirvana of concepts has unlimited power. There are those explanations and schemes that says hearers will be awakened by Buddha and told they have more to practice, and things about time and space having something to do with it. My feeling is this cannot be believed. If we go to the essence of meaning, we understand how a center and boundary at the beginning of the path changes the energy. No center or boundary unlimits the energy.
My Nirvana, your Nirvana, their Nirvana. Good Nirvana, better Nirvana, best Nirvana. I Nirvana, you Nirvana, they Nirvana.

Seems to me that based on your ignorance (I'll take it for granted that you are not enlightened) you are constructing differences where no differences truly exist.

Well I'm sorry, but that's just plain naughty. Slap on the wrist and back to the sand pit with you. And listen well: I don't want to hear about you fighting with the other boys and girls again or else no realisations for you tonight after supper!
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One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:40 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Seems to me that based on your ignorance (I'll take it for granted that you are not enlightened) you are constructing differences where no differences truly exist.


Someone hasn't learned lam rim. There are difference taught in Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen.
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby Sönam » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:46 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:[color]
...
Nirvana is a word used to point to liberation for the one who is looking for liberating illusion or karma. This is based on dualisms like good and bad.
So the methods are here purifying etc.
...
[/color]


clear ... and that my point, discussing with vajrayana practitioners pretending that nirvana is "definitive", where I argue than not because samsara and nirvana is finally of one taste ... therefore pretending (in that case) that nirvana is impermanent.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:56 am

adinatha wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Seems to me that based on your ignorance (I'll take it for granted that you are not enlightened) you are constructing differences where no differences truly exist.


Someone hasn't learned lam rim. There are difference taught in Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen.
Know what? You are right! I haven't learnt lam rim.

But when Nirvana (mya ngan med pa) is defined as the "blowing out" then it seems stupid to me to posit degrees of blowing out: "kindda blown out", "almost blown out", "well, actually blown out but not really blown out", "hey look there's still an ember there".

Maybe not so much stupid but definitely contrived. And for what purpose is it contrived? In order to rank Buddhist traditions from highest to lowest.
BORING!

But hey, that's just my personal opinion (to which, of course, I am entitled).
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby Sönam » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:00 am

well, it depend the strenght of the blowing out, that is the degree of cleanliness of the pipe regarding subtle impurity ...

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:07 am

Tell you what guys (and gals), lets all go get enlightened and then come back and argue over the details once we've realised enlightenment. How's that sound? Anybody game? Any takers?
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:07 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
adinatha wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Seems to me that based on your ignorance (I'll take it for granted that you are not enlightened) you are constructing differences where no differences truly exist.


Someone hasn't learned lam rim. There are difference taught in Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen.
Know what? You are right! I haven't learnt lam rim.

But when Nirvana (mya ngan med pa) is defined as the "blowing out" then it seems stupid to me to posit degrees of blowing out: "kindda blown out", "almost blown out", "well, actually blown out but not really blown out", "hey look there's still an ember there".

Maybe not so much stupid but definitely contrived. And for what purpose is it contrived? In order to rank Buddhist traditions from highest to lowest.
BORING!

But hey, that's just my personal opinion (to which, of course, I am entitled).
:namaste:


The motivation changes the result. Sravakas, prateykabuddhas, bodhisattvas and buddhas all seek freedom from suffering. Sravakas and prateykabuddhas enter nirvana with the motivation to attain freedom from suffering for themselves. A bodhisattva realizes nonduality and sameness with respect to beings, time and space, hence the bodhisattva motivation. Buddhas are fully enlightened because they have traveled the path of the two accumulations based on the bodhisattva motivation. With a small motivation you get a small result. With a great motivation you get a great result. Great compassion forsakes no beings. For a sravaka and prateykabuddha nirvana applies only to themselves. For a bodhisattva and a buddha, nirvana isn't nirvana unless all beings blow out too.
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:14 am

Furthermore since we are in the Dzogchen forum, there is non-abiding nirvana that doesn't grasp samsara or nirvana. And there is an abiding nirvana related to the method of the Nyingthig.
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:25 am

Adhinath did wrote:
The motivation changes the result


Tashi delek,

Well the karma could also change the result.
But in the cause, is not the result, it is empty of that otherwise no emancipation possible.

Also the degree Ma rigpa about our Natural State or Sugathagarba can influence the result.

I guess, on that is based if one does the gradual steps (lam rim / lam dre / Ngondro etc,) to the top of the building or not.
In case one does proceed without the gradual steps one uses the real short cut like used in Dzogchen.

But because the Bagchag / Vasana, many are forced to go by the stairs to heaven or Nirvana, stairway(s) to heaven.

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:26 am

You are right, I should respect the fact that I am in the Dzogchen forum. Sorry I didn't check which forum I was in before I posted.
gregkavarnos signing out!
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Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby Sönam » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:27 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Tell you what guys (and gals), lets all go get enlightened and then come back and argue over the details once we've realised enlightenment. How's that sound? Anybody game? Any takers?
:namaste:


who knows Image

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:02 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Adhinath did wrote:
The motivation changes the result


Tashi delek,

Well the karma could also change the result.
But in the cause, is not the result, it is empty of that otherwise no emancipation possible.

Also the degree Ma rigpa about our Natural State or Sugathagarba can influence the result.

I guess, on that is based if one does the gradual steps (lam rim / lam dre / Ngondro etc,) to the top of the building or not.
In case one does proceed without the gradual steps one uses the real short cut like used in Dzogchen.

But because the Bagchag / Vasana, many are forced to go by the stairs to heaven or Nirvana, stairway(s) to heaven.

Best wishes
KY


Dzogchen works directly with the vajra body to attain the same result as Mahayana/Vajrayana; just in an immediate way. The motivation for doing so is to be a buddha, not an arhat.
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:14 am

Adhinath wrote:
Dzogchen works directly with the vajra body to attain the same result as Mahayana/Vajrayana; just in an immediate way. The motivation for doing so is to be a buddha, not an arhat


Tashi delek,

Everybody will attain in some time Buddhahood.
But because our mind is not born and will not die, the duration to get it or realise that state, can be endless. This because time doesn 't exist for the mind.
So the Buddhas did declare that Samsara is based on suffering and they help to get rid asap of these sufferings.
Who likes endless suffering?

The reason a Dzogchenpa realises in this life (bardo) the Natural State / Rainbow Body, is that " he/she " in that way as a Dharmakaya Buddha, can emanate endless reflections into Samsara as a meaning of the perfect help. So in this Body the sentient beings are benefitted at the best.

Best wishes
KY
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HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby adinatha » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:34 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:Everybody will attain in some time Buddhahood.


No one attains buddhahood accidentally.
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby username » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:37 pm

Sönam wrote:Excuse my ignorance but I would like to clarify one point ... from Dzogchen point of view.
Hinayana nirvana, from the POV of mahayana is impermanent, because the Arhat is supposed not to rebirth and let beings to their sufferings he would have to reincarnate ...
From the strict pov of vajrayana, nirvana is said to be permanent, also subtle stains still remind ... next step being to acquire buddha's omniscience.
But because of specific Dzogchen view of samsara and nirvana being of same taste, and rigpa and ma'rigpa, what is the Dzogchen pov on nirvana ?

thank you for your kind answers
Sönam


Forget about it. Great Perfection.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby Sönam » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:46 pm

username wrote:
Forget about it. Great Perfection.


In the mean time I've found arguments ... which was the point !

:cheers:
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: nirvana impermanent

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:15 pm

adinatha wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Everybody will attain in some time Buddhahood.


No one attains buddhahood accidentally.



Tashi delek,

Who is no one?
Further everybody has it already that Buddhahood in the form of the nucleus or Tigle / Bindhu which place to "reside" is the heart.

So we do not talk here about accidentally because Buddhahood is already there and everybody does experience this Natural State / Buddhahood sometimes in the daytime. But nevertheless a Dzogchenpa has the "same" visions as the lay person or not practitioner, the latter will never understand these temporal visions.

So it is not according Dzogchen to attain Buddhahood, because it is already there.

The question arises how to be aware of that and not so how to attain that.

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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