Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Vajrahridaya » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:46 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Vajrahridaya wrote:
Well, to have ChNNR confirmed by historical or older present Masters of high esteem is pretty good for faith I would think. For you it's a given, but for plenty of us new to the world of Vajrayana in this life, it's an excellent thing to know that... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatral_Rinpoche is cool with ChNNR. That's awesome to me. :twothumbsup:


ChNN never needed any confirmation in the past, he does not need any now, and he won't need any in the future.

If some tibetan asked me that question I would say, "ask him yourself if you really care".

N


Of course he doesn't need any confirmation, but there are us run in the mill dumbo's out there that need confirmation of his Mastership from other older Masters in order to verify him as a person worth having faith in. I had my direct experience with him during my first retreat, so I have no doubts of his mastership, but it's nice to get even more confirmation in order to know that I'm not just deluding myself. For me, it's great. I'm not Tibetan, I don't read Tibetan, so it's a nice thing to hear these things here on this forum. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that this is good to have confirmation of your Master from other Masters. That's how Tulkus are found to begin with.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby gnegirl » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:48 pm

Namdrol wrote:
username wrote:
more importantly, who gives a rat's ass.



Why so mean to rats? They're kinda cute sometimes.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby username » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:23 am

rai wrote:hi :)

I dont have any knowledge on those matters,i've just heard that Chatral Rinpoche is not very appochable person so i was curious how do you know all those things about termas veryfied or not by him and that he always defends CHNNR =)

I am sure it is all true, but sometimes people repeat gossips or something they read on some forums so it sounds as it was something they witnessed, then it is a bit misleading =)



Hi rai,
I already answered you but you seem to be obssessed with gossiping. Knowing your posts, you either ask about Tibetan Medicine or quizz about DC/ChNNR in a negative tone, I knew with the ants in your pants, you'd be jumping on the bandwagon soon.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:40 pm

dzoki wrote:
adinatha wrote:NNR says in his teaching on the Semzins that the Semzin of Phat comes from Patrul Rinpoche. I'm wondering if that is true of the direct introduction part too?


I don´t know that Rinpoche said that, because semdzin of PHAT is also in Nyida khajor tantra. Semdzins are methods, direct introduction is something else. I think method for introduction with PHAT is in case of Namkhai Norbu connected to his terma called Yeshe Zangthal - which is a method for direct introduction to the natural state, but I dont have that text at my hand, so I cannot confirm that.
There are many different semdzins, in DC we use two collections, one is Nyida khajor, the other one is in Longchenpa´s Thegchog dzo, they are more or less same, although arrangement differs and some semdzins included in one are not included in other and vice versa. Longsal terma of Namkhai Norbu lists specificaly 7 semdzins. There are also semdzins in semde.


Do you remember which volume of the longsal terma?
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Fa Dao » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:43 pm

the thing is, is that ChNN IS one of the "old school" masters/authorities. He is over 70 and has been around the world Dharma scene for a long time. In all of that time there has never been a money, sex, or power scandal. Neither has there ever been any weird cult like behavior. He has also turned out some very advanced students. His time on the world scene speaks for itself. If all of that is not enough for some people nothing probably ever will be.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby dzoki » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:28 pm

adinatha wrote:
dzoki wrote:
adinatha wrote:NNR says in his teaching on the Semzins that the Semzin of Phat comes from Patrul Rinpoche. I'm wondering if that is true of the direct introduction part too?


I don´t know that Rinpoche said that, because semdzin of PHAT is also in Nyida khajor tantra. Semdzins are methods, direct introduction is something else. I think method for introduction with PHAT is in case of Namkhai Norbu connected to his terma called Yeshe Zangthal - which is a method for direct introduction to the natural state, but I dont have that text at my hand, so I cannot confirm that.
There are many different semdzins, in DC we use two collections, one is Nyida khajor, the other one is in Longchenpa´s Thegchog dzo, they are more or less same, although arrangement differs and some semdzins included in one are not included in other and vice versa. Longsal terma of Namkhai Norbu lists specificaly 7 semdzins. There are also semdzins in semde.


Do you remember which volume of the longsal terma?

Volume 3 in the text of Ati Lamngon.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby username » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:49 pm

ChNNR is also:

- A retired professor
- At the top of the list of Tibetologists of ancient Tibet as we see in conferences and venerated by the greatest current professors as the one who truly established the field
- A hero amongst Tibetan nationalists for reviving Tibetan cultural identity
- One of the last great masters from old Tibet with encyclopaedic knowledge and training and great realizations
- Blessed as faultless by Chatral Rinpoche and written a long life prayer for. As well as being his long time disciple and when in Tibet a student of the great Chokyi Lodro Khyentse, hence Sogyal Rinpoche's devotion to ChNNR
- An old friend and advisor to HH Dalai Lama who constantly encourages him to write new books on Tibet and has given him precious gifts for that
- A translator to the Pope for his friend the last Karmapa who kept insisting he has to teach and gave him one of his centers and blessed his introduction of Dzogchen into west and recognized him as a great Kagyu tulku, the Chogyal darma king of Bhutan, as well as his other tulku title being the great Adzom Drukpa who with his magical gars, now reproduced, was the greatest Dzogchen master after the extraordinary historic Khyentse, Dudjom Lingpa, Kongtrul & Patrul passed away
- HHDL introduced Tibetan Buddhism to all corners of the world and ChNNR did that for Dzogchen
- A major living terton

The question is who does ChNNR endorse not the other way round. I wanted to say all that above before but as Namdrol said why should we?

When the usual suspect flies buzz around saying did Chatral Rinpoche verify his terma and when asked which living terton has this verification they buzz off. ChNNR who regularly donates from his academic pension to the sangha should be believed or a few materialist lamas, ignoring the same question and attacking him, making money in the name of Dzogchen as condemned by Chatral Rinpoche? People break major samaya by attacking a major precious living terton and similar garbage constantly and then write page after page detailing problems with their practice and wondering why!

Now back to topic: Phat in Dzogchen has several methods and used by Garab Dorje and Manjushrimitra and Dzogchen tantras and most probably before them by those particular ancient buddhas teaching Dzogchen in the mists of prehistoric time.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:54 pm

thanks
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Pero » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:05 pm

username wrote:People break major samaya by attacking a major precious living terton and similar garbage constantly and then write page after page detailing problems with their practice and wondering why!

First of all I don't think anyone was really attacking but even if so, they're not breaking samaya anymore than you when constantly attacking people. I suggest you look into the outer, inner and secret samayas related to voice, which is good advice also for myself.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby username » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:18 pm

Pero wrote:
username wrote:People break major samaya by attacking a major precious living terton and similar garbage constantly and then write page after page detailing problems with their practice and wondering why!

First of all I don't think anyone was really attacking but even if so, they're not breaking samaya anymore than you when constantly attacking people. I suggest you look into the outer, inner and secret samayas related to voice, which is good advice also for myself.


That is your impression, mine differs. Secondly they are if they claim to be his students but constantly raise doubts about him in post after post as I stipulated, that is why I do not mean pemachophel whose sole question was obviously well intended. When you take a teacher, don't constantly raise doubts about him in public. If unhappy ask privately within the sangha and if still unhappy leave and even then keep silence. You are not experienced enough even when it is more obvious than reading in between the lines so don't 'attack' me in ignorance.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Pero » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:46 pm

username wrote:
Pero wrote:
username wrote:People break major samaya by attacking a major precious living terton and similar garbage constantly and then write page after page detailing problems with their practice and wondering why!

First of all I don't think anyone was really attacking but even if so, they're not breaking samaya anymore than you when constantly attacking people. I suggest you look into the outer, inner and secret samayas related to voice, which is good advice also for myself.


That is your impression, mine differs. Secondly they are if they claim to be his students but constantly raise doubts about him in post after post as I stipulated, that is why I do not mean pemachophel whose sole question was obviously well intendded. When you take a teacher, don't constantly raise doubts about him in public. If unhappy ask privately within the sangha and if still unhappy leave and even then keep silence.

I don't really disagree with that in general, though I'm sure you can understand that there can be circumstances where keeping silence would be a negative thing.

You are not experienced enough even when it is more obvious than reading in between the lines so don't 'attack' me in ignorance.

That may be true but perhaps you are exaggerating too.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:50 pm

I know that there is some rumor going around the Tibetan lama email circuit that Chatral Rinpoche has said NNR is a "fake master" for saying Dzogchen is beyond Buddhism, for his veneration of Bon, and for calling himself "Choegyal." Then, there are jabs being taken at his master's claim of being reincarnation of Adzom Drukpa. So I imagine more people are going to be hearing from their lamas stuff like this about NNR. It's just the usual sectarianism, jealousy and Yankee Doodle competition for warm bodies. NNR has done amazing things for Buddhism world-wide. So it's clearly not fair. But isn't obvious he's taken controversial approaches to the teachings and broken with tradition? I applaud him for that, but one would only expect some backlash by the establishment. Fight the Power!
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:04 pm

adinatha wrote: But isn't obvious he's taken controversial approaches to the teachings and broken with tradition?


Nope, it is not obvious at all. I have been his student for 19 years. He is actually a pretty conservative teacher. His attitude toward Bon is no different than the attitude of Guru Chowang, the immediate incarnation of Nyangral, and the terton who revealed the seven line prayer. Guru Chowang wrote in his "Great Origin of Treasures:

"First: the two the supreme of all beneficial qualities, [5/a] the treasure of the true words of Bon emanations: the way the compassionate body came from the pure dimension of the ultimate nature [bon nyid i.e. chos nyid] and the after the treasure of body, speech and mind arose, the way the teaching was spread, i.e. the way a treasure descends from a treasure.

First: the pure dimension of the ultimate nature completely free from falling into any parts or divisions was singular and unique, the treasure of the hidden Bon dharmakāya [bon chos sku] which has nothing to give up, appeared from pure activity to tame beings as the sambhogakāya Shenlha Wodkar [gshen lha 'od dkar]. The way his compassion was moved is that in general he thought of all migrating beings. Specifically, he thought of beings in Jambudvīpa.

Second: after the treasure of the body, speech and mind was produced, the teachings were widely spread. The way the treasure descends from a treasure is that in order to tame the the confusion of ignorance, the root of samsara,at Wolmo Lungring in the land of Zhang Zhung the hidden treasure of compassion arrived in the form of Shenrab Miwoche [gshen rab mi bo che, i.e. the supreme one of the Shen clan, the greatest of men]. The hidden treasure was concealed in a single intention by all the Tathāgatas in the mind of Shenrab, and he taught the nine vehicles of Bon.

Afterwards, Shenrab's words were collected by the fortune Bonpos and placed in a catalogue. The cause Bon tamed ordinary beings, and result Bon tamed intelligent beings.

The teachings were spread in Tokharistan, where people wear silk turbans, the land India and the border lands and also spread in dPur rGyal in Tibet and Bon was disseminated in the beginning.

The King was given the name as the Elder Brother of Bon because he made sure the teaching did not decline, and also he concealed the Bon treasures of cause and result in Zhang Zhung the temple of Shampo Lhatse. Furthermore, as they were spread in the mountain of white peaks in Oddiyana, the Chinese mountain Dru Dzin [5/b] and in southern and northern Tibet, having concealed treasures which descended from treasures, the Bon texts were not destroyed, and the Bonpos became renowned.

Also I, Chowang, say that the profound teaching of Bon is uninterrupted."


If ChNN is to be faulted for respecting Bon Dzogchen, how much more so the master who originally revealed the seven line prayer? Obviously, Nyingmapas who do not respect Bon also do not respect their own lineage masters.

In reality, the only novel thing ChNN does is not pay lip service to the gradual approach of the gsar ma schools. And even this is not novel, but rather a return to the old Nyingma way of doing things, rather than this neo-Nyingma gradualism.

In reality, what ChNN did was free Dzogchen from Tibetan politics and money games. And for that, some worldly tibetans and westerners wearing robes, who bilk their students of their wealth and rob them of their precious human birth, who bear the title of this and that rinpoche hate ChNN. Well, f76k them.

N

N
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby username » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:21 pm

Pero wrote:I don't really disagree with that in general, though I'm sure you can understand that there can be circumstances where keeping silence would be a negative thing.


That is the opposite of what Rinpoche teaches as you know he says even when leaving the evil gyalpo's lama just keep silent and quietly help others. So now you are saying the opposite harsh advice for his own students? Bizzare and cruel.

Pero wrote:That may be true but perhaps you are exaggerating too.


You didn't use to argue for arguments sake but this is waffle, you admit your fault though. Also you are saying I am unkind to them and you are kind, in fact the opposite is true.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Clarence » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:35 pm

Username,

If I may ask, but is English your native language? You come across as condescending and rude in your defenses of CNNR. Now, I would understand that a whole lot better if English isn't your native language. If it is your native language, then I will just continue to hit "report".
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Pero » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:45 pm

username wrote:
Pero wrote:I don't really disagree with that in general, though I'm sure you can understand that there can be circumstances where keeping silence would be a negative thing.


That is the opposite of what Rinpoche teaches as you know he says even when leaving the evil gyalpo's lama just keep silent and quietly help others. So now you are saying the opposite harsh advice for his own students? Bizzare and cruel.

I'm sure that's what that Sakya Lama told his female students too, to just keep quiet. But see, you're exaggerating again. Trying to read between the lines all the time, when there might be nothing there at all, will get you say weird things like that.

Also, that was Rinpoche's advice to his own students and particularly those students who had contact with the gyalpo, not to the students of that teacher for example. It's a big difference.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby username » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:14 pm

Pero wrote:I'm sure that's what that Sakya Lama told his female students too, to just keep quiet. But see, you're exaggerating again. Trying to read between the lines all the time, when there might be nothing there at all, will get you say weird things like that.


No that's wrong as my unedited post quoted below shows I said first inquire within the sangha and if still unhappy leave and be silent. We never had these problems as our sangha is the largest in the west and globally with no hint of controversy as you connote. We are super clean and as the master recommends taking other teachers, unlike other lama$, and has hurt people from others too. For the rest see below.

username wrote: When you take a teacher, don't constantly raise doubts about him in public. If unhappy ask privately within the sangha and if still unhappy leave and even then keep silence.


Pero wrote:Also, that was Rinpoche's advice to his own students and particularly those students who had contact with the gyalpo, not to the students of that teacher for example. It's a big difference.


Again that's wrong as that is a general advice he gives very often and very rarely does he mention the evil gyalpo's name. He says it generally for all those that have left a teacher, any teacher, behind. He says do not attack your former teacher in public. This is routine in TB and has to do with karmic connections and Vajrayana Samayas which you often refer to. Best wishes.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:29 pm

username wrote:
Pero wrote:...they're not breaking samaya anymore than you when constantly attacking people...


That is your impression, mine differs.


Username,

I mean no harm, but I am going to speak plainly. When you first appeared on this forum, you seemed balanced and witty and brought nice things to the table and I enjoyed reading your posts - both ones I agreed with and those few I did not. But soon I began noticing a trend where your posts seemed to get more and more emotionally charged, particularly with anger and greater and greater exaggeration and accusations of supposed faults in others' characters and intentions. Now, every post seems to include a scathing psychoanalysis from afar of those who have differing views than you, and when spelling out such psychoanalysis, you seem incapable of descriptives short of "evil, bizarre, cruel, dark, unholy", etc to describe all the faults you perceive others to have... Seriously, those are words you now regularly use verbatim.

You will undoubtedly deny anger and exaggeration on your part, and I fully expect to receive a full run-down of all my unholy and evil intentions and purposes for stating the above, and all my own shortcomings preserved for posterity in my past posts here... But seriously, brother, it is worth it to take some time and really examine your heart and mind and determine if what I'm saying might be true and whether all this vitriol is really necessary or beneficial to others or yourself.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby Pero » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:37 pm

username wrote:No that's wrong as my unedited post quoted below shows I said first inquire within the sangha and if still unhappy leave and be silent.

And as I said I don't disagree with that in general, except when there are some particular circumstances.

We are super clean and as the master recommends taking other teachers, unlike other lama$, and has hurt people from others too.

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand that last part, who hurt who?

Again that's wrong as that is a general advice he gives very often and very rarely does he mention the evil gyalpo's name.

You gave that example so I just went along with it. :smile:

He says do not attack your former teacher in public.

And again, I don't disagree with that in general. However, if Rinpoche would think for example that getting sexually abused and then keeping quiet about it is what one should do then I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with him on that one.

This is routine in TB and has to do with karmic connections and Vajrayana Samayas which you often refer to.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I think it's all a little difficult really, and why it would be best to really evaluate most teachers before committing to them and perhaps there wouldn't even be such predicaments.

Best wishes.

Thanks, to you too. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Origin of the Direct Introduction with Syllable Phat

Postby username » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:02 am

Pema Rigdzin,
You say don't reply so and so ... that is not right and I am smiling most of the time. And you accuse me in advance of attacking you! Also maybe read Dreyfus and others on the traditions of deabte. TB is not Hare Krsihna or the 60's whicch ended badly. I used bizzare above, that is not harsh at all, but in your karmic vision it is unacceptable! If what you saw in my posts in content and intention was 'only' negativity then that was not my intention. I am full of faults though and tthanks for your advice. Best wishes to you.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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