James Low & Simply Being

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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Sönam » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:42 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sönam wrote:The question should be put the other way around ...

How could Samantbhadra knew innately dualistic vision (therefore liberation) in the first place?

Sönam


Tashi delek,

I guess he was in a non dualistic way aware of all. :)
Or to mention/suggestion, Rigpa covers Ma Rigpa.

Best wishes
KY


being aware does not necessary mean "of all" ... ma-rigpa exists because "out" of rigpa, therefore rigpa in the first place is ignorant of ma-rigpa.

Sönam
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:58 pm

Sonam wrote:
being aware does not necessary mean "of all" ... ma-rigpa exists because "out" of rigpa, therefore rigpa in the first place is ignorant of ma-rigpa.
Sönam


Tashi delek,

Of all, that is explained as unhindered mind, a capacity of Buddhas. Yes if we have Rigpa then we have according dualism(s) 2 things, namely Rigpa and Ma Rigpa seen.

I understood that in Rigpa (Natural State) there is is no dualism but that dualism is encompassed by Rigpa.
Ma Rigpa does mean not knowing Rigpa and in this State, is mainly the concept of Ma Rigpa maintained as well the fruit of the path.
But in the Natural State there is no Ma Rigpa experience......

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Sönam » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:08 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sonam wrote:
being aware does not necessary mean "of all" ... ma-rigpa exists because "out" of rigpa, therefore rigpa in the first place is ignorant of ma-rigpa.
Sönam


Tashi delek,

Of all, that is explained as unhindered mind, a capacity of Buddhas. Yes if we have Rigpa then we have according dualism(s) 2 things, namely Rigpa and Ma Rigpa seen.

I understood that in Rigpa (Natural State) there is is no dualism but that dualism is encompassed by Rigpa.
Ma Rigpa does mean not knowing Rigpa and in this State, is mainly the concept of Ma Rigpa maintained as well the fruit of the path.
But in the Natural State there is no Ma Rigpa experience......

Best wishes
KY


As you said, unhindered mind is a capacity ... but for it to be more than a potential it needs to exist "before" (or at least with), otherwise it only stay a capacity. As rigpa being dualisticly related to ma-rigpa yes, but that's a (already) dualistic view ... In the first place rigpa is non dual, therefore ignorant of ma-rigpa. It's the fact of non recognizing that makes it ma-rigpa, therefore dual.

Sönam
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:19 pm

Sonam wrote:
first place rigpa is non dual, therefore ignorant of ma-rigpa.


Tashi delek,

Can agree to many things regarding your previous post.

But if Rigpa is non dual it does mean in fact it can be unhindered everywhere which we cannot say about the body of Ma Rigpa.
I would say that the Rigpa is aware of Ma Rigpa like about all other things.

To make an exception would mean that the Adhi Buddha would be imperfect somewhere , somehow and that taking out or adding things to these States in Dzogchen that is not possible. The Natural State is without/empty etc. from exceptions etc.


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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Sönam » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:43 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:...

But if Rigpa is non dual it does mean in fact it can be unhindered everywhere which we cannot say about the body of Ma Rigpa.
I would say that the Rigpa is aware of Ma Rigpa like from all other things.

To make an exception would mean that the Adhi Buddha would be imperfect somewhere , somehow and that taking out or adding things to these States in Dzogchen that is not possible. The Natural State is without/empty etc. from exceptions etc.

Best wishes
KY[/color]


I would say Rigpa is "potentialy" aware of all things ... but being in the first place, ma-rigpa does not exist yet (and may never exist), therefore Rigpa can be aware and ignorant of something which does not yet exist. Only in a second time, by not recognizing, it becomes ma-rigpa and dualistic.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:53 pm

Sonam wrote:
Rigpa can be aware and ignorant of something


Tashi delek

To be aware means with Wisdom etc. so the essence is fully understood and never not understood.
Not understood yes that means Samsara etc. here we can easy agree. But it is said in Bon that Kuntu Zangpo did not made the mistake to see an object, because he knew he was that all.

So there are exceptions i guess who did made that mistake........

Best wishes
KY
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:44 am

Astus wrote:He is one of the less known teachers as he tours only in Europe. I find his style very modern and appropriate for the audience. There are transcripts and videos on the website, there are also books you can buy.

Simply Being

[img]http:// the natural state we have never left, yet have somehow forgotten."[/i]



Tashi delek,

If one does forget the Natural State one is leaving (temporal without a feeling of time) that State.
Entering that Natural State is coming back home.


Best wishes
KY



Best wishes
KY
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby booker » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:
In order to understand this, you need to study the process of Samantabhadra's liberation. When you do so, you will discover than Samantabhadra was not always liberated. Then you will understand that Samantabhadra possessed innate ignorance, but not imputing ignorance. Innate ignorance is simply unknowing. Imputing ignorance causes dualistic vision.

N

Hello Lopon

Where can I read about the process of Samantabhadra's liberation? I could not find antything like that in the Kunjed Gyalpo, can you point me to the passage saying about this process?

In conclusion, at the end of this book ChNNR says Samantabhadra was never stained, nor it would know the limiting concept of liberation, or "first".
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:00 pm

booker wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
In order to understand this, you need to study the process of Samantabhadra's liberation. When you do so, you will discover than Samantabhadra was not always liberated. Then you will understand that Samantabhadra possessed innate ignorance, but not imputing ignorance. Innate ignorance is simply unknowing. Imputing ignorance causes dualistic vision.

N

Hello Lopon

Where can I read about the process of Samantabhadra's liberation? I could not find antything like that in the Kunjed Gyalpo, can you point me to the passage saying about this process?

In conclusion, at the end of this book ChNNR says Samantabhadra was never stained, nor it would know the limiting concept of liberation, or "first".


The process of the liberation of Samantabhadra is proper to man ngag sde. You will not find anything about it in sems sde, at all, not even a little bit. You can read about it in the eleven topics of Dzogchen Nyinthig.

The innate ignorance is not a "stain" per say. It is not an afflictive ignorance, it is a simple absence of knowing.

Basically, at the point the basis arises from the basis, there is a neutral awareness present in the basis. That neutral awareness has no self-knowledge until the basis arises. While it is not aware of itself, it is in a state of non-afflictive ignorance.

When it apprehends the five lights, it apprehends them either as its own display, resulting in nirvana, Samantabhadra, etc., or it does not, resulting in samsara. The Tantra That Uproots Delusion:

Knowing the energy of the svābhavakāya
as their own appearance produced buddhas;
being mistaken about their own appearance produced sentient beings.


Afflictive ignorance comes from the dualistic vision produced by imputing ignorance.

N
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby booker » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:15 pm

Cheers for the clarification on this Lopon.

Kind Regards
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:19 pm

Tashi delek Namdrol,

Regarding your previous post are we dealing here with a subtle self called nam shes?
If the lights not understood or the Wisdom aspects (Sambhogakaya)

Further the Svavabhiveka Kaya (sorry when wrong spelled) her energy is called Tsal and the "body / source" the Gzhi.
Remarkable are the 2 explanations regarding the same meaning, The tri Kaya / 4 Kayas and the Dzogchen explanation.

- Where does this opinion about the 4th kaya stem from?

Best wishes
KY
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Pero » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:Knowing the energy of the svābhavakāya
as their own appearance produced buddhas;
being mistaken about their own appearance produced sentient beings.



Is there a difference between svabhavakaya and svabavikakaya? And if so, what is svabhavakaya?
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:23 pm

Pero wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Knowing the energy of the svābhavakāya
as their own appearance produced buddhas;
being mistaken about their own appearance produced sentient beings.



Is there a difference between svabhavakaya and svabavikakaya?


No.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Astus » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:14 am

How strange that self-aware wisdom is originally not self-aware.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:40 am

Astus wrote:How strange that self-aware wisdom is originally not self-aware.



Tashi delek,

According the undermentioned is it possible that the Primordial Wisdom can see its own face or is self-aware :D

Mutsog Marro
KY



Martijn wrote:
The king of innate awareness nakedly arises.
Concepts — the veil of the intellect — are removed.
Self-arising primordial wisdom sees its own face.
Ignorance — the darkness of delusion — is lifted
.


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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby booker » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:53 am

Hm I think the problem is how is that Primordial Wisdom is obscured in the first place (what gives a rise to sentient beings like us).
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Sönam » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:13 pm

booker wrote:Hm I think the problem is how is that Primordial Wisdom is obscured in the first place (what gives a rise to sentient beings like us).


may by not (re) cognizing ... that's why there is innate ignorance.

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby booker » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:28 pm

Sönam wrote:
booker wrote:Hm I think the problem is how is that Primordial Wisdom is obscured in the first place (what gives a rise to sentient beings like us).


may by not (re) cognizing ... that's why there is innate ignorance.

Sönam

Yes, but I guess this boils down to the fact, that since it's a self-aware wisdom, how come the ignorance could possibly happen.
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Sönam » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:53 pm

booker wrote:
Sönam wrote:
booker wrote:Hm I think the problem is how is that Primordial Wisdom is obscured in the first place (what gives a rise to sentient beings like us).


may by not (re) cognizing ... that's why there is innate ignorance.

Sönam

Yes, but I guess this boils down to the fact, that since it's a self-aware wisdom, how come the ignorance could possibly happen.


Simple ... because Eva has asked to eat the apple, and that stupid Adam has done it!

Sönam
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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:03 pm

booker wrote:
Sönam wrote:
booker wrote:Hm I think the problem is how is that Primordial Wisdom is obscured in the first place (what gives a rise to sentient beings like us).


may by not (re) cognizing ... that's why there is innate ignorance.

Sönam

Yes, but I guess this boils down to the fact, that since it's a self-aware wisdom, how come the ignorance could possibly happen.



Tashi delek,

If Rigpa is encompassing everything it can also be aware of illusion.
If Rigpa is everything it can also be illusion.
If Rigpa is everything it can also be dualistic etc.

How it did happen in the time without time? This is finally not so important, more important is the way back home. :applause:

Has the Buddha a self identity?
Seen in our actual situation yes but when we dwell in that State it is not like that.....
Here one can see that one never can have a correct impression about the ultimate if one dwells in the relative / dualistic mind.

So we never or can hardly maintain a position or point of view, with a dualistic karma mind, regarding the Natural State. :shock:

To be or not to be in that State that is the question and not so a speculative consideration about something which is NOT obtained.
In this case is our Rig dzin the Master to explain that to us, how to maintain that Natural State, the rest is senseless speculations or "Mind games" .....


Mutsog Marro
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