James Low & Simply Being

[alwayson]

What are you, a Heidegger fan?

And what are you, a polymath?

[padma norbu]

I suppose this may have something to do with the many things ChNN has said over the years that make me just go, "HUH?" like in the My Reincarnation movie where he tells the student (paraphrased), "there is not really much to change, it is not like one day you are transformed. Practice is about discovering something and becoming aware of that knowledge and working with that knowledge" ... and also his repeated instruction to remain present when we are going about our daily activities. Becoming aware of how the mind works and being mindful of it seems to be what rigpa is about, if I am not misunderstanding something or going too far here.

That nature is always there. If there is any light, any existence, any blood, any form, any thing at all, then the nature is already available.

Yes, that much I know.

You don't need a coupon, a discount, a charge card, a bucket, anything.

Uh... I really didn't think you did.

It's there. So there is nothing to worry about. All things have the same essence. Everything is perfect.

If we don't discover it and we don't maintain awareness, it doesn't make much difference to us if everything is perfect; we will continue on in delusion and cycle through samsara.

The reason I found ChNN's remarks perplexing (the ones you have just responded to) is because he says it is not like one day you are transformed, there is nothing very much to change. Pretty sure that is exactly how he worded it and I think key words in deciphering his meaning are "nothing VERY MUCH to change." When you become familiar with rigpa, I'm sure you do change and you do transform. And you certainly transform if you achieve rainbow body. I think "getting in that knowledge and working with that knowledge" and "remaining present in daily activities" is how we start out to make that change. Dzogchen is not the path of transformation, I know, but if Namkhai Norbu hasn't changed since he was a young student... that's nonsense. Of course he has changed, change is part of life.

[gad rgyangs]

Rigpa is that which enables you to be astonished that there is something rather than nothing.

What are you, a Heidegger fan?

Wittgenstein too:

"I wonder at the existence of the world. And I am then inclined to use such phrases as 'how extraordinary that anything should exist' or 'how extraordinary that the world should exist'."
- Wittgenstein, "A Lecture on Ethics" (1929)

[padma norbu]

Rigpa is that which enables you to be astonished that there is something rather than nothing.

What are you, a Heidegger fan?

Wittgenstein too:

"I wonder at the existence of the world. And I am then inclined to use such phrases as 'how extraordinary that anything should exist' or 'how extraordinary that the world should exist'."
- Wittgenstein, "A Lecture on Ethics" (1929)

It's the kind of thinking that can make you go insane, actually. At least, that's what I gathered from a BBC documentary called "Dangerous Knowledge" and some experience with people who've gone made trying to figure out the nature of reality purely intellectually and conceptually.

[heart]

I am afraid that makes no sense. Does ChNN say this?

/magnus

Rig pa cog bzhag is allowing all thoughts to be as they are. Conceptual knowledge is included in thoughts.

There is no conceptual knowledge apart from thoughts because this is the conceptual obscuration, the heart of "sem". Allowing the self-liberation of "sem" is rigpa.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

I am afraid that makes no sense. Does ChNN say this?

/magnus

Rig pa cog bzhag is allowing all thoughts to be as they are. Conceptual knowledge is included in thoughts.

There is no conceptual knowledge apart from thoughts because this is the conceptual obscuration, the heart of "sem". Allowing the self-liberation of "sem" is rigpa.

/magnus

In The Lamp of Vidyā, five aspects of vidyā are described. According to Vimalamitra, the first, the vidyā which apprehends characteristics, designates general and specific phenomena, it is a non-conceptual awareness sullied by many cognitions.

When asked "Are those vidyā’ the same, or are they different?", the reply is that there is nothing other than a single essence.

For this reason we can understand that thoughts are included in rigpa.

N

[alwayson]

For this reason we can understand that thoughts are included in rigpa.

N

How can thoughts be included in rigpa??

What about the infamous distinction between rigpa (knowledge) and sems, expounded by the omniscient masters?

[Sönam]

For this reason we can understand that thoughts are included in rigpa.

N

How can thoughts be included in rigpa??

What about the infamous distinction between rigpa (knowledge) and sems, expounded by the omniscient masters?

As you say rigpa is knowledge, knowledge of our natural state, knowledge of the Base. And the Base has three aspects : Essence, Nature, and Energy ... and Energy is without interruption, the thoughts.

Sönam

[Malcolm]

For this reason we can understand that thoughts are included in rigpa.

N

How can thoughts be included in rigpa??

What about the infamous distinction between rigpa (knowledge) and sems, expounded by the omniscient masters?

Thoughts are the energy [rtsal] of rigpa.

N

[conebeckham]

From the POV of Dzokchen, would a fully enlightened Buddha have "thoughts?" I'm thinking of the Madhyamika thread......I understand that the nature of thoughts is the energy of rigpa, but how does this impact the discussion of Buddhas being concept-free?

[Sönam]

Thoughts are not necessarily conceptuals ...

Sönam

[Malcolm]

From the POV of Dzokchen, would a fully enlightened Buddha have "thoughts?" I'm thinking of the Madhyamika thread......I understand that the nature of thoughts is the energy of rigpa, but how does this impact the discussion of Buddhas being concept-free?

No impact, and no, a Buddha still has no thoughts since, from a Dzogchen POV, mind is the result of karmic winds mixing with the rtsal of rigpa.

N

[Sönam]

From the POV of Dzokchen, would a fully enlightened Buddha have "thoughts?" I'm thinking of the Madhyamika thread......I understand that the nature of thoughts is the energy of rigpa, but how does this impact the discussion of Buddhas being concept-free?

No impact, and no, a Buddha still has no thoughts since, from a Dzogchen POV, mind is the result of karmic winds mixing with the rtsal of rigpa.

N

Then what is the rtsal of rigpa when no thoughts?

Sönam

[heart]

Thoughts are not necessarily conceptuals ...

Sönam

Thoughts are always conceptual, but knowledge might be from concepts.

/magnus

[heart]

Rig pa cog bzhag is allowing all thoughts to be as they are. Conceptual knowledge is included in thoughts.

There is no conceptual knowledge apart from thoughts because this is the conceptual obscuration, the heart of "sem". Allowing the self-liberation of "sem" is rigpa.

/magnus

In The Lamp of Vidyā, five aspects of vidyā are described. According to Vimalamitra, the first, the vidyā which apprehends characteristics, designates general and specific phenomena, it is a non-conceptual awareness sullied by many cognitions.

When asked "Are those vidyā’ the same, or are they different?", the reply is that there is nothing other than a single essence.

For this reason we can understand that thoughts are included in rigpa.

N

A single essence doesn't mean they are the same. Like the nature of mind not being the same as mind. Actually, what you say sounds more Mahamudra related then Dzogchen.

/magnus

[Malcolm]

From the POV of Dzokchen, would a fully enlightened Buddha have "thoughts?" I'm thinking of the Madhyamika thread......I understand that the nature of thoughts is the energy of rigpa, but how does this impact the discussion of Buddhas being concept-free?

No impact, and no, a Buddha still has no thoughts since, from a Dzogchen POV, mind is the result of karmic winds mixing with the rtsal of rigpa.

N

Then what is the rtsal of rigpa when no thoughts?

Sönam

rtsal.

[Malcolm]

A single essence doesn't mean they are the same. Like the nature of mind not being the same as mind. Actually, what you say sounds more Mahamudra related then Dzogchen.

/magnus

It means there is only one vidyā that has five expressions.

[alwayson]

mind is the result of karmic winds mixing with the rtsal of rigpa.

N

Thoughts are the energy [rtsal] of rigpa.

N

Sure I believe all that

Then what does distinguishing between rigpa and sems mean if sems is actually partly derived from rigpa......

[Malcolm]

mind is the result of karmic winds mixing with the rtsal of rigpa.

N

Thoughts are the energy [rtsal] of rigpa.

N

Sure I believe all that

Then what does distinguishing between rigpa and sems mean if sems is actually partly derived from rigpa......

It means knowing the difference between the crystal that produces a rainbow and the rainbow projected from the crystal -- the rtsal of the crystal produces the rainbow, the rainbow comes from the crystal but is not part of the crystal. Likewise, thoughts come from the energy of vidyā, but they are not vidyā.

[ronnewmexico]

AHA.....................