James Low & Simply Being

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby alwayson » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 am

Namdrol wrote:
What are you, a Heidegger fan?



And what are you, a polymath? :tongue:
alwayson
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:36 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby padma norbu » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 am

Virgo wrote:
padma norbu wrote: I suppose this may have something to do with the many things ChNN has said over the years that make me just go, "HUH?" like in the My Reincarnation movie where he tells the student (paraphrased), "there is not really much to change, it is not like one day you are transformed. Practice is about discovering something and becoming aware of that knowledge and working with that knowledge" ... and also his repeated instruction to remain present when we are going about our daily activities. Becoming aware of how the mind works and being mindful of it seems to be what rigpa is about, if I am not misunderstanding something or going too far here.

That nature is always there. If there is any light, any existence, any blood, any form, any thing at all, then the nature is already available.

Yes, that much I know.
Virgo wrote:You don't need a coupon, a discount, a charge card, a bucket, anything.
Uh... I really didn't think you did.
Virgo wrote: It's there. So there is nothing to worry about. All things have the same essence. Everything is perfect.
If we don't discover it and we don't maintain awareness, it doesn't make much difference to us if everything is perfect; we will continue on in delusion and cycle through samsara.

The reason I found ChNN's remarks perplexing (the ones you have just responded to) is because he says it is not like one day you are transformed, there is nothing very much to change. Pretty sure that is exactly how he worded it and I think key words in deciphering his meaning are "nothing VERY MUCH to change." When you become familiar with rigpa, I'm sure you do change and you do transform. And you certainly transform if you achieve rainbow body. I think "getting in that knowledge and working with that knowledge" and "remaining present in daily activities" is how we start out to make that change. Dzogchen is not the path of transformation, I know, but if Namkhai Norbu hasn't changed since he was a young student... that's nonsense. Of course he has changed, change is part of life.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby gad rgyangs » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:10 am

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:Rigpa is that which enables you to be astonished that there is something rather than nothing.


What are you, a Heidegger fan?


Wittgenstein too:

"I wonder at the existence of the world. And I am then inclined to use such phrases as 'how extraordinary that anything should exist' or 'how extraordinary that the world should exist'."
- Wittgenstein, "A Lecture on Ethics" (1929)
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.
User avatar
gad rgyangs
 
Posts: 737
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby padma norbu » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:01 am

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:Rigpa is that which enables you to be astonished that there is something rather than nothing.


What are you, a Heidegger fan?


Wittgenstein too:

"I wonder at the existence of the world. And I am then inclined to use such phrases as 'how extraordinary that anything should exist' or 'how extraordinary that the world should exist'."
- Wittgenstein, "A Lecture on Ethics" (1929)


It's the kind of thinking that can make you go insane, actually. At least, that's what I gathered from a BBC documentary called "Dangerous Knowledge" and some experience with people who've gone made trying to figure out the nature of reality purely intellectually and conceptually.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby heart » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:09 am

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
I am afraid that makes no sense. Does ChNN say this?

/magnus


Rig pa cog bzhag is allowing all thoughts to be as they are. Conceptual knowledge is included in thoughts.


There is no conceptual knowledge apart from thoughts because this is the conceptual obscuration, the heart of "sem". Allowing the self-liberation of "sem" is rigpa.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 2935
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:25 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
I am afraid that makes no sense. Does ChNN say this?

/magnus


Rig pa cog bzhag is allowing all thoughts to be as they are. Conceptual knowledge is included in thoughts.


There is no conceptual knowledge apart from thoughts because this is the conceptual obscuration, the heart of "sem". Allowing the self-liberation of "sem" is rigpa.

/magnus




In The Lamp of Vidyā, five aspects of vidyā are described. According to Vimalamitra, the first, the vidyā which apprehends characteristics, designates general and specific phenomena, it is a non-conceptual awareness sullied by many cognitions.

When asked "Are those vidyā’ the same, or are they different?", the reply is that there is nothing other than a single essence.

For this reason we can understand that thoughts are included in rigpa.

N
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10187
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby alwayson » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:For this reason we can understand that thoughts are included in rigpa.

N



How can thoughts be included in rigpa??

What about the infamous distinction between rigpa (knowledge) and sems, expounded by the omniscient masters?
alwayson
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:36 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Sönam » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:22 pm

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:For this reason we can understand that thoughts are included in rigpa.

N



How can thoughts be included in rigpa??

What about the infamous distinction between rigpa (knowledge) and sems, expounded by the omniscient masters?


As you say rigpa is knowledge, knowledge of our natural state, knowledge of the Base. And the Base has three aspects : Essence, Nature, and Energy ... and Energy is without interruption, the thoughts.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Sönam
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:41 pm

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:For this reason we can understand that thoughts are included in rigpa.

N



How can thoughts be included in rigpa??

What about the infamous distinction between rigpa (knowledge) and sems, expounded by the omniscient masters?


Thoughts are the energy [rtsal] of rigpa.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10187
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby conebeckham » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:58 pm

From the POV of Dzokchen, would a fully enlightened Buddha have "thoughts?" I'm thinking of the Madhyamika thread......I understand that the nature of thoughts is the energy of rigpa, but how does this impact the discussion of Buddhas being concept-free?
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2430
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Sönam » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:06 pm

Thoughts are not necessarily conceptuals ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Sönam
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:12 pm

conebeckham wrote:From the POV of Dzokchen, would a fully enlightened Buddha have "thoughts?" I'm thinking of the Madhyamika thread......I understand that the nature of thoughts is the energy of rigpa, but how does this impact the discussion of Buddhas being concept-free?


No impact, and no, a Buddha still has no thoughts since, from a Dzogchen POV, mind is the result of karmic winds mixing with the rtsal of rigpa.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10187
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Sönam » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:25 pm

Namdrol wrote:
conebeckham wrote:From the POV of Dzokchen, would a fully enlightened Buddha have "thoughts?" I'm thinking of the Madhyamika thread......I understand that the nature of thoughts is the energy of rigpa, but how does this impact the discussion of Buddhas being concept-free?


No impact, and no, a Buddha still has no thoughts since, from a Dzogchen POV, mind is the result of karmic winds mixing with the rtsal of rigpa.

N


Then what is the rtsal of rigpa when no thoughts?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Sönam
 
Posts: 1867
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby heart » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:15 pm

Sönam wrote:Thoughts are not necessarily conceptuals ...

Sönam


Thoughts are always conceptual, but knowledge might be from concepts.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 2935
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby heart » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:19 pm

Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Rig pa cog bzhag is allowing all thoughts to be as they are. Conceptual knowledge is included in thoughts.


There is no conceptual knowledge apart from thoughts because this is the conceptual obscuration, the heart of "sem". Allowing the self-liberation of "sem" is rigpa.

/magnus




In The Lamp of Vidyā, five aspects of vidyā are described. According to Vimalamitra, the first, the vidyā which apprehends characteristics, designates general and specific phenomena, it is a non-conceptual awareness sullied by many cognitions.

When asked "Are those vidyā’ the same, or are they different?", the reply is that there is nothing other than a single essence.

For this reason we can understand that thoughts are included in rigpa.

N


A single essence doesn't mean they are the same. Like the nature of mind not being the same as mind. Actually, what you say sounds more Mahamudra related then Dzogchen.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 2935
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:36 pm

Sönam wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
conebeckham wrote:From the POV of Dzokchen, would a fully enlightened Buddha have "thoughts?" I'm thinking of the Madhyamika thread......I understand that the nature of thoughts is the energy of rigpa, but how does this impact the discussion of Buddhas being concept-free?


No impact, and no, a Buddha still has no thoughts since, from a Dzogchen POV, mind is the result of karmic winds mixing with the rtsal of rigpa.

N


Then what is the rtsal of rigpa when no thoughts?

Sönam



rtsal.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10187
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:40 pm

heart wrote:
A single essence doesn't mean they are the same. Like the nature of mind not being the same as mind. Actually, what you say sounds more Mahamudra related then Dzogchen.

/magnus



It means there is only one vidyā that has five expressions.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10187
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby alwayson » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:43 pm

Namdrol wrote:mind is the result of karmic winds mixing with the rtsal of rigpa.

N


Namdrol wrote:Thoughts are the energy [rtsal] of rigpa.

N



Sure I believe all that :thumbsup:

Then what does distinguishing between rigpa and sems mean if sems is actually partly derived from rigpa......
alwayson
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:36 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby Malcolm » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:48 pm

alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:mind is the result of karmic winds mixing with the rtsal of rigpa.

N


Namdrol wrote:Thoughts are the energy [rtsal] of rigpa.

N



Sure I believe all that :thumbsup:

Then what does distinguishing between rigpa and sems mean if sems is actually partly derived from rigpa......


It means knowing the difference between the crystal that produces a rainbow and the rainbow projected from the crystal -- the rtsal of the crystal produces the rainbow, the rainbow comes from the crystal but is not part of the crystal. Likewise, thoughts come from the energy of vidyā, but they are not vidyā.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10187
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Low & Simply Being

Postby ronnewmexico » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:02 pm

AHA.....................
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
User avatar
ronnewmexico
 
Posts: 1601
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Dzogchen

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: asunthatneversets, Inge and 8 guests

>