What is your feeling on other traditions?

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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby Pero » Tue May 31, 2011 11:13 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:
"All" does not include teachers not related to dharma.


It does. It includes whatever beneficial knowledge you are received in your life. At some level, it is all Dharma.

You are confusing this idea of unifying all teachers into Guru yoga with the principles of refuge. Not the same. Your refuge is the three jewels, you are unifying all teachers and knowledge into the three jewels, so there is not problem.


Hmm, you have an interesting take, could you please provide something to back this up?
Because I'm afraid that I otherwise can't change my mind so easily since in the Precious Vase kun 'dus yid bzhin nor bu is mentioned in two places. Ironically (since you say I'm confusing GY with refuge), one is in the section on Mahayoga Guru yoga (p223) and there the note says to look in the section on refuge (p103). And there it doesn't say what you're saying at all, there is no mention of anything not related to Buddhadharma.

Next to that, Norbu Rinpoche said this many times, yes, but never have I heard him say to unify teachers not related to transmission. In fact I heard the opposite, that we don't have to unify for example our carpenter teacher.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby Malcolm » Tue May 31, 2011 11:23 pm

Pero wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Pero wrote:
"All" does not include teachers not related to dharma.


It does. It includes whatever beneficial knowledge you are received in your life. At some level, it is all Dharma.

You are confusing this idea of unifying all teachers into Guru yoga with the principles of refuge. Not the same. Your refuge is the three jewels, you are unifying all teachers and knowledge into the three jewels, so there is not problem.


Hmm, you have an interesting take, could you please provide something to back this up?
Because I'm afraid that I otherwise can't change my mind so easily since in the Precious Vase kun 'dus yid bzhin nor bu is mentioned in two places. Ironically (since you say I'm confusing GY with refuge), one is in the section on Mahayoga Guru yoga (p223) and there the note says to look in the section on refuge (p103). And there it doesn't say what you're saying at all, there is no mention of anything not related to Buddhadharma.

Next to that, Norbu Rinpoche said this many times, yes, but never have I heard him say to unify teachers not related to transmission. In fact I heard the opposite, that we don't have to unify for example our carpenter teacher.


We do not have to do anything. In any case, I have personally heard him say that one can unify all one's teachers, including non-Buddhist teachers, in the three jewels. He said this in the 1992 SMS base retreat. Perhaps he has changed his opinion since then.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 11:36 pm

Ga dam, Namdrol was in SMS retreat in 1992! Having heard of Namkhai Norbu before the internet was really anything much at all is some good karma indeed. :thumbsup:
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby Pero » Tue May 31, 2011 11:39 pm

Namdrol wrote:We do not have to do anything.

Hehe true.

In any case, I have personally heard him say that one can unify all one's teachers, including non-Buddhist teachers, in the three jewels. He said this in the 1992 SMS base retreat. Perhaps he has changed his opinion since then.

I just looked in Teachings on Semde by Sodogpa, where there are sections on refuge and GY too. He doesn't say anything like that there either. Of course on the other hand he also doesn't flat out deny it. So I will look around some more to see if he says otherwise elsewhere.

But also my personal opinion on this is that there is no point in including non-Buddhist teachers. The three jewels are called jewels so that they're distinguished from ordinary things. They're what leads to Buddhahood. Non-Buddhist teachers/teachings do not lead to Buddhahod. So I see no point in unifying them. Other things may be helpful sure. But if you say they're helping on the way to Buddhahood that can be true but only trivially so. It's like saying not jumping in front of a speeding train will help you reach Buddhahood.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 11:46 pm

Pero wrote:The three jewels are called jewels so that they're distinguished from ordinary things. They're what leads to Buddhahood. Non-Buddhist teachers/teachings do not lead to Buddhahod. So I see no point in unifying them.


Well, whenever I have thought of it, I have always thought of it as your personal attitude toward what the Guru is, which is the Buddha Nature in all beings and in yourself unified into a personification of all-dharma which you then take refuge in as the perfect embodiment of all knowledge and wisdom. It's similar to the idea of seeing the people jostling you around on the sidewalks as dakinis in a way.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:20 am

padma norbu wrote:
Pero wrote:The three jewels are called jewels so that they're distinguished from ordinary things. They're what leads to Buddhahood. Non-Buddhist teachers/teachings do not lead to Buddhahod. So I see no point in unifying them.


Well, whenever I have thought of it, I have always thought of it as your personal attitude toward what the Guru is, which is the Buddha Nature in all beings and in yourself unified into a personification of all-dharma which you then take refuge in as the perfect embodiment of all knowledge and wisdom. It's similar to the idea of seeing the people jostling you around on the sidewalks as dakinis in a way.



These two views are not necessarily contrary. It depends on one's understanding of emptiness. There is some teaching that says "we are all the same in the eyes of God". That is a good teaching, even if one does not accept the idea of a god, because what it means is that really, despite our differences, we all are very similar. There is a similar thought in Buddhism, "all beings want to be free from suffering".

Considering that there is nothing that can truly be called a 'self' in buddhism, there sure are a lot of opinions.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:36 am

You know who does a lot of this "mixing"?

Shambhala.

What is their deal?
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby seraphim » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:26 am

I think this solves it and works well I think. Even when I visualize more elaborate refuge fields I include my Aikido teacher whom I love and respect as a protector of dharma; no ill effects so far! But do correct me if I am wrong thou....
Namdrol wrote:It does. It includes whatever beneficial knowledge you are received in your life. At some level, it is all Dharma.

You are confusing this idea of unifying all teachers into Guru yoga with the principles of refuge. Not the same. Your refuge is the three jewels, you are unifying all teachers and knowledge into the three jewels, so there is not problem.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:36 am

padma norbu wrote:You know who does a lot of this "mixing"?

Shambhala.

What is their deal?


I read the path of the Warrior book thinking that perhaps Shambhala was geared more towards people who wanted to practice dharma but who didn't want it to be a 'religion' thing. But for me it seemed more religious than just plain old dharma. I remember going to a Dharmadhatu, or Vajradhatu center (I don't recall what it was called then) in NYC almost 20 years ago to a talk by Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche. There were a group of people there all crisply dressed in identical pants, shirts and very shiny neckties. I thought they were flight attendants, and when I asked them if they were, they got a little perturbed. They were part of that little army thing that CTR had created. I have always liked his books, and have close dharma friends who were his students and who practice the Shambhala teachings, so I am not attacking then at all. But honestly, they crack me up sometimes.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby justsit » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:27 pm

Just to clarify - Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche is not part of the Shambhala organization. He often teaches in Shambhala centers, though, as both are part of Kagyu lineage.

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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:46 pm

Shambhala Centers have all kinds of people teach there, just like they sell all kinds of books. If you saw Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche there, I'd say you were very lucky. He is a wonderful teacher!

If you go to Shambhala's homepage and look at the left menu topics, you will find Christianity, Judaism and way more. I just don't understand what their agenda is. Was CTR moving Shambhala in this direction or did this happen after his death?
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby justsit » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:53 pm

You may have been looking at the Shambhala.com website - that is the publishing arm. Shambhala.org is the site for the organization proper.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby Chaz » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:42 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
padma norbu wrote:You know who does a lot of this "mixing"?

Shambhala.

What is their deal?


I read the path of the Warrior book thinking that perhaps Shambhala was geared more towards people who wanted to practice dharma but who didn't want it to be a 'religion' thing. But for me it seemed more religious than just plain old dharma. I remember going to a Dharmadhatu, or Vajradhatu center (I don't recall what it was called then) in NYC almost 20 years ago to a talk by Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche. There were a group of people there all crisply dressed in identical pants, shirts and very shiny neckties. I thought they were flight attendants, and when I asked them if they were, they got a little perturbed. They were part of that little army thing that CTR had created.


Yes, those look-a-likes were Dorje Kasung. When they're "on duty" (and the ones you saw probably were), they tend to respond that way.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby Chaz » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:49 pm

padma norbu wrote:Shambhala Centers have all kinds of people teach there,


Not so much any more, at least not around here. Seems like the teachers now are all a part of the Shambhala organization. Even the Shambhala Mountain Center near Ft. Collins doesn't seem to have the variety of teachers it once did.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby padma norbu » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:39 pm

justsit wrote:You may have been looking at the Shambhala.com website - that is the publishing arm. Shambhala.org is the site for the organization proper.

Yes, I was. Thanks for pointing out there are 2 distinct operations going on. But, I wonder why they publish this stuff. Just to make money? I got a book about creativity that I was pretty excited about because it was on the Shambhala imprint and the description sounds pretty buddhist:
http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/i ... -357-8.cfm
Then, I bought it and it's talking about God on the very first pages. Blahhh....
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby Chaz » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:32 pm

padma norbu wrote:
justsit wrote:You may have been looking at the Shambhala.com website - that is the publishing arm. Shambhala.org is the site for the organization proper.

Yes, I was. Thanks for pointing out there are 2 distinct operations going on. But, I wonder why they publish this stuff. Just to make money?


My understanding is that Shambhala Publishing a separate, independant company - not a part Shambhala International.

They put titles from other traditions in their catalog because they're in the publishing business to sell books and make money. The money that Christians spend is just as green as the money Buddhists spend.
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Re: What is your feeling on other traditions?

Postby ngodrup » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:47 pm

I think Shambhala Publishers, like the Shambhala Sun Magazine,
can be understood to be a "Shambhala centered" but essentially
pan-buddhist, contemplative spriituality and culture resource.

Yes they are different, and they support each other. The shambhala
teaching were initially intended to be secular and support an
enlightened culture. So the books and magazine are about *that*
mission, not a Buddhist or shambhala lineage one per se.
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