Electronic Dzogchen

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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Vajrahridaya » Tue May 31, 2011 3:21 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:In a live webcast you have simultaneously the intention to teach from the lama and the intention to receive the teachings from the students. In a record such is not simultaneous.


Yes, it's a global grid of synchronistic positive intention.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Vajrahridaya » Tue May 31, 2011 3:29 am

Astus wrote:My question basically was/is that since it is all right not to have a teacher there in person but it is enough to hear his voice and see his form via TV/computer, why would not a record of it be the same? And if digitally there is no difference at all between recorded and live - there isn't - whatever is communicated is either what is seen and heard or it is not. If it is communicated through perceptible means a record is as good as live. If it is not communicated through anything perceptible then what and how is it?


I personally got transmission in person, but my wife got it through the webcast after hearing plenty of things I played for practice, etc. She experienced Rigpa at the "snapping" point during the live broadcast transmission and felt an intimate connection that was palpable and undoubtably visceral. Basically, it was deeply felt, beyond the intellect, through the transmission due to the energy of intuitive synchronicity, like a grid of positive intention sweeping the globe. "Snap"... :meditate:
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue May 31, 2011 3:31 am

Tashi delek, :)

Yes we are also very impressed about the possibilities about the webcam teachings, which have great advantages for Teachers and their students /followers.

In the nearby future will we also get in our Lha Kang teachings from our Khenpo. (Khenpo is here besides an abbot also a Geshela)
This additional web cam teachings, are used as an addition to our already received live teachings, done in our Lha Kang.

It is a very good modern way to save money (travel costs) and time.
So i see this kind of modern virtual reality as a good way to spread the Dharma. :D

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 3:49 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:I'm sure this is not your case (really), but there are people who write to their lamas to know if they are allowed to learn how to play flute (this is real!). :lol:


Ah, so I see people have been talking about me behind my back again. :lol:
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 4:03 am

:lol:
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue May 31, 2011 9:54 am

username wrote:Apart from the session's pithy instructions which are secondary to intending and achieving instant presence anyway, conceptualizing or worrying about unnecessary temporal (synchronous/asynchronous) & causal clockworks are obstacles.


Since that is presented as an explanation of the mechanism I am actually interested what that really means. I don't see how that is bad.

Vajrahridaya wrote:Basically, it was deeply felt, beyond the intellect, through the transmission due to the energy of intuitive synchronicity, like a grid of positive intention sweeping the globe. "Snap"... :meditate:


"energy of intuitive synchronicity" - very poetic expression. But it seems to me only a concept with little actual meaning. Is it that you're explaining an experience with a theory or that you are aware of a causal relation behind the events?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby mindyourmind » Tue May 31, 2011 10:25 am

I am trying to come to terms with the whole concept of electronic means of conveying not just teachings, but (as I understand it) also what seems to be beneficial transmissions, matters which I normally associated with actual in - person teachings. Intuitively I see no objection to any of this, and if the true Dharma can be made available in this manner then I see it as a skillful means. But is it quite consistent with what we saw in the past?

Would I have been able to receive an advanced teaching from my teacher via a telephone, for example? I think so, and I have stories along those lines. Traveling to see and hear ChNN would cost me a lot in time and money, so this way of receiving the teaching seems so right (I am talking about the concept, not necessarily Dzogchen).

Does the actual face-to-face teachings and relationship with the guru not also force us to give something back - the guru also watches us, sees how we progressed or regressed, gives us just the right advice. With the "Dharma -on - Tap" approach we just seem to sit back and take it all in, one size seemingly fitting all.

Where, I wonder, will this end? Will teachers still be bothered to travel and give face-to-face transmissions, when they could just give you your lung via Skype? Are we not paying a price in getting the Dharma to more people in this manner?

As the wise man said - :shrug:
As bad as bad becomes its not a part of you

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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 2:39 pm

For me, all my transmissions were very subtle. I didn't ever feel a "snap," even in person. I remember the first time I went to receive transmission, they were describing it all so we would know what to do and then they full described how we would get a little "shock" that was the transmission and I was so upset. A spoiler alert would have been nice because I would have plugged my freakin' ears. How much of a shock/surprise can you get if someone says, "okay, right around here... this part right here... you're going to be surprised?" It's like if Tilopa said, "Naropa? Stay still, I'm going to slap you in the face with my sandal..."
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Pero » Tue May 31, 2011 2:45 pm

mindyourmind wrote:Where, I wonder, will this end? Will teachers still be bothered to travel and give face-to-face transmissions, when they could just give you your lung via Skype?

Sure, it's much cooler attending a teaching and seeing the teacher in person. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Tue May 31, 2011 6:39 pm

Astus wrote:
username wrote:Apart from the session's pithy instructions which are secondary to intending and achieving instant presence anyway, conceptualizing or worrying about unnecessary temporal (synchronous/asynchronous) & causal clockworks are obstacles.


Since that is presented as an explanation of the mechanism I am actually interested what that really means. I don't see how that is bad.


The subject of those posts, as in the topic's OP, was referring to the conditions while receiving DI/Lungs. The sentence you quoted is part of a paragraph that deals with that. At the time of receiving DI/Lung transmissions, it is 'bad' to be thinking of all possible mechanisms for causal cogs and wheels and possible temporal variations (there are many) and the numerous possible alternatives of how that transmission might be working. It is best to relax into the pithy instructions. Other times it is very very good for people to contemplate on such spiritual matters, whether in their conceptual time bound frameworks and mechanics or going beyond the husk into higher and more subtle levels of the true meanings. Apart from the short periods of transmission which is not suitable for curious wonderings, unfortunately people do not contemplate enough or wonder as you describe and it is in fact a very good thing. If an idea becomes circular and overtly repetitive or obsessive then that is too much. Also simple wonderings during meditation is not always bad though mostly it is bad, but one should keep it short and instinctive in case it is a wisdom and always return to non-blocking/non-following of thoughts to get into instant presence which is the desired destination anyway.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue May 31, 2011 8:03 pm

username,

Of course I didn't mean to ponder about these things when one is attending a transmission. I'm asking about this here on the forum. Could you then explain, please?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:53 am

Right:
Astus wrote:1) What does synchronicity stand for in this case? 2) If the teacher is in a particular state that in fact nobody else can sense or touch in any way how does that influence those who attempt to be in the same state? 3) Or even if both teacher and students are in the same state how is that related to each other? 4) What is the connection between the state of the teacher and the students if not anything perceptible?


1) We have the 5 sites' attributes, teacher, student, teaching/transmission, location/space & time. This concerns the last, time, and it just means both the giver and receiver are present and intending their roles concurrently at the same.

2) That would be a complete failure on one or both ends and rarely happens. Also see reply to 4)

4) I will answer 4) first to make 3) clearer. There can be varying levels for what the student receives. At the lowest level it is more than a blessing, ie: a karmic connection that is made and later in life or in another lifetime, 'hopefully' soon within 16 or much sooner not the usual eons, the student will reconnect with Ati and/or that teacher successfully realizing rigpa. ChNNR says the least is you'll have a much more relaxed life. Also a powerful master can help remove certain obstacles and by following his tantra after, purification is much more effective. In a mid-level scale one tries to undertake Vajrayana practices with a Dzogchen POV which elevates them to wholely different levels. You know the lower levels, Kyria Carya Yoga Maha and Anu have different aims and purposes and mechanisms. Even doing them now with an Ati POV makes them much more effective as well as multi-dimensional by helping one progress faster and within Ati too. The lowest form at this mid-level is merely doing tantra/terma/etc. with the intellectual POV of Dzogchen and higher still would be from an experiential POV of Dzogchen and higher would be extending that into all life. Gradually first then longer periods then into sleep and a great master is in total integration all the time, waking or asleep, or just not in non-distraction for a very few moments when waking up or falling asleep. But this is the ultimate. So when even nothing is perceptible still things are happening. Often a master does not know what is happening deep within a student so they reserve judgement. Somebody who apparently didn't get it and might even be doing weird or very normal things might be already realized without knowing and ready to take off more or merely show it or getting ready to be realized soon despite appearances. Another who seems to have got it and/or seems the perfect student or even a teacher himself, might not have got it or might never get it, falling badly later or in another lifetime. So that is why even great teachers without unbound omniscience (unlike probably very few like Karmapa or Dudjom) reserve judgement on who is what and at what condition 'deeply', while as a good master knowing on the surface and mid-levels what is happening to the student and where he is at and what is needed for that student next. Of course in a few cases of students many masters sense or have brief visions/signs of a great (tulku or of great destiny/purpose) or bad case before them but these are exceptional. But something always does happen at some level.

3) That depends on the level attained by the student. In essence if successfully introduced, they are in the same state. But there are different levels of realization of Rigpa for different people so each successful case is at a certain level. Having said that basically if successful for that short time regardless of grades, in Dharmakaya, both are the same. But then is all there in Dharmakaya however that teacher took you there not Shakyamuni or Padmasambhava and you are only there because you are non-dual with him briefly. So once in dharmakaya there is no individuals but it is not the Advaita theory of complete oneness either. It is neither many nor one, neither existence nor non-existence, etc. But the student and teacher are continuous (yoga). They tell us these things can not be conceptualized and are only to be known by being experienced like a virgin experience. Thus we hear!

I need to get back to looking for an obscure device driver. :smile:
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:31 am

username,

Thanks for the long response. Unfortunately, and this may be my fault, I don't see how it explains what I'm asking about. What I'm asking is simply the connection. It's like there are two computers and I'm asking how they are connected. I can't find in your answer that connecting relation. This I assume is important because that's why a live transmission is OK but not its recorded version. So it is the connection, not other parts I'm asking about.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:56 pm

Astus wrote:username,

Thanks for the long response. Unfortunately, and this may be my fault, I don't see how it explains what I'm asking about. What I'm asking is simply the connection. It's like there are two computers and I'm asking how they are connected. I can't find in your answer that connecting relation. This I assume is important because that's why a live transmission is OK but not its recorded version. So it is the connection, not other parts I'm asking about.


1- No that is obviously wrong and you are making basic cognitive mistakes. You didn't ask 1 question but 4 as I showed.

2- As to your last post's general question, ultimately it is all beyond causality as well as time as you have been told. Even Sutra based lower vehicles like Zen go on and on about paradoxes which is much simpler than this. If you don't understand going beyond causality and time is the absolute opposite of computers networking synchronized handshaking protocols and similar irrelevant and silly examples, then you will never come even close to the flavor of dharmakaya or even something simple like a Zen paradox framework's aim. It is like a child that keeps reducing a second order equation into a first order one and keeps saying it doesn't work and I don't get it. The current capacity which in this case's essence is the will, is missing.

3- In Vajrayana in general and in Dzogchen in particular, we are the opposite of missionaries. Those that need to or have past karmic connections or most importantly want to, will connect. Otherwise it is not any good for the unwilling.

To sum up: Once it is beyond time and causality, to keep wanting to reduce it to those lower dimensional representations will only distort it into falsehoods. Secondly as I said, it is not to be conceptualized or defined in any terminology which will also result in a false model. Finally it is a virgin experience beyond description. So your question is by definition of the subject's axioms pointless as you must have been told often before just as a Zenpa would tell you there is no linear answer to the paradox context. That is the gist of the worldview of our little discussion as to the gist of the ideology derived from that as well as additional instructions not discussed here, there is nothing further to do, or say.

Have a good day.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:38 pm

Astus wrote:username,

Thanks for the long response. Unfortunately, and this may be my fault, I don't see how it explains what I'm asking about. What I'm asking is simply the connection. It's like there are two computers and I'm asking how they are connected. I can't find in your answer that connecting relation. This I assume is important because that's why a live transmission is OK but not its recorded version. So it is the connection, not other parts I'm asking about.



HI Astus:

Can you have a phone conversation with a recording?

N
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:09 pm

username,

If it is beyond time-space it is always "at the same time" of no-time, so there's no difference between live and recorded.

Namdrol,

Of course not. However, a transmission is not a two-way communication but there is one speaker/transmitter and many listeners/receivers, like a radio/TV programme where whether the show is live or recorded makes no difference.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:17 pm

Astus wrote:
I can't find in your answer that connecting relation.


Tashi delek, :D

I thought that the connecting relation would be the mind of the Master to the mind of the student.
The group must not extend a number from 9 - 12 students, according certain Dzogchen Masters.

The Master has also with or without a phone, webcam etc. a basic connection with his students in the guise of the Tsawe Lama.
With this basic connection, webcam teachings can make the understanding more profound, in case of problems, with the already given teachings.

So an introduction into the Natural State, cannot be done over webcam but questions about the personal practice afterwards, that can be done over webcam.
The introduction into the Natural State has to be followed live, well this could have a reason I cannot explain that reason, sorry. Personal do i prefer to be there in person, live.

But i do not see no difference between a teaching given by webcam or live, when the connection with the Master is very strong..........


Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Pero » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:45 pm

Astus wrote:Of course not. However, a transmission is not a two-way communication but there is one speaker/transmitter and many listeners/receivers, like a radio/TV programme where whether the show is live or recorded makes no difference.

And that's the core of it. Who said transmission is a one-way thing?
I suppose you could say something like this. There can be only one person talking on the phone while the other just listens, but he still had to pick up the call. If he hadn't, the other person would not be talking and/or there would be no chance of hearing.

But, I think this changes with the type of transmission. I'm actually in the camp of people who believe that receiving a lung transmission should be possible through recordings. Dodrupchen used to send his students lungs on CDs (edit: sorry, actually tapes). But you have to respect that teachers' idea from whom you're receiving teachings, so if he says it's a no go then it's a no go.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:55 pm

Pero wrote:And that's the core of it. Who said transmission is a one-way thing?
I suppose you could say something like this. There can be only one person talking on the phone while the other just listens, but he still had to pick up the call. If he hadn't, the other person would not be talking and/or there would be no chance of hearing.

But, I think this changes with the type of transmission. I'm actually in the camp of people who believe that receiving a lung transmission should be possible through recordings. Dodrupchen used to send his students lungs on CDs. But you have to respect that teachers' idea from whom you're receiving teachings, so if he says it's a no go then it's a no go.


Well, transmission, pointing out instruction, they can be both one-way and two-way. In the form a webcast is done or when large number of people take part in it it is a one-way thing since it'd be quite impossible to involve even 50 people into a single event personally, not to mention hundreds. A two-way version is when there is communication between teacher and student and they personally know each other. If there is a visiting teacher from far away and gives whatever initiation/empowerment/teaching/etc. to a local group or audience, that's a one-way event, a one man show. Being part of a small community and having a close relationship with a teacher, that's a two-way thing.

I raised the question about communication exactly because I see no reason why it shouldn't be the same in a recorded form as in live. But since there were people who said there is a difference I wanted to know what it is. But I still have no definite answer.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Pero » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:09 pm

Astus wrote:
Pero wrote:And that's the core of it. Who said transmission is a one-way thing?
I suppose you could say something like this. There can be only one person talking on the phone while the other just listens, but he still had to pick up the call. If he hadn't, the other person would not be talking and/or there would be no chance of hearing.

But, I think this changes with the type of transmission. I'm actually in the camp of people who believe that receiving a lung transmission should be possible through recordings. Dodrupchen used to send his students lungs on CDs. But you have to respect that teachers' idea from whom you're receiving teachings, so if he says it's a no go then it's a no go.


Well, transmission, pointing out instruction, they can be both one-way and two-way. In the form a webcast is done or when large number of people take part in it it is a one-way thing since it'd be quite impossible to involve even 50 people into a single event personally, not to mention hundreds. A two-way version is when there is communication between teacher and student and they personally know each other. If there is a visiting teacher from far away and gives whatever initiation/empowerment/teaching/etc. to a local group or audience, that's a one-way event, a one man show. Being part of a small community and having a close relationship with a teacher, that's a two-way thing.

I raised the question about communication exactly because I see no reason why it shouldn't be the same in a recorded form as in live. But since there were people who said there is a difference I wanted to know what it is. But I still have no definite answer.

Intention is the difference. Above you're talking about relationship, not transmission. Transmission doesn't have anything to do with it. (though even for relationship you don't have to be together with the teacher physically)
The teacher has to have the intention to transmit or there is no transmitting. The person on the receiving end has to have the intention to receive, otherwise there can be no receiving. So it's like someone calls you and you don't pick the phone or you pick up the phone. The moment you picked up the phone it's no longer a one-way communication.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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