Electronic Dzogchen

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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby alpha » Mon May 30, 2011 7:37 pm

but you can be led into rigpa by listening to recordings ...assuming the you were introduced live previously....
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Mon May 30, 2011 7:42 pm

alpha wrote:but you can be led into rigpa by listening to recordings ...assuming the you were introduced live previously....


but then it's not a question of sound ... but transmission :twothumbsup: and except the fact than you cannot be "led into rigpa", you recognize that all ... and with ChNN it's easily possible via the web

:applause:
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Pero » Mon May 30, 2011 7:45 pm

Sönam wrote:is it clearer or should I comment :smile:

It's not clearer since all you did was give a recap of the thread...

Giving lungs is the transmission of sounds.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Mon May 30, 2011 7:50 pm

Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote:is it clearer or should I comment :smile:

It's not clearer since all you did was give a recap of the thread...

Giving lungs is the transmission of sounds.


we do not speak about lung, but about rig pa ! ... it's about Dzogchen ... not tantras !

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Pero » Mon May 30, 2011 7:53 pm

Sönam wrote:
Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote:is it clearer or should I comment :smile:

It's not clearer since all you did was give a recap of the thread...

Giving lungs is the transmission of sounds.


we do not speak about lung, but about rig pa ! ... it's about Dzogchen ... not tantras !


Dzogchen has transmission of lungs too. And I thought we were speaking about webcasts.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Mon May 30, 2011 8:03 pm

Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote:we do not speak about lung, but about rig pa ! ... it's about Dzogchen ... not tantras !


Dzogchen has transmission of lungs too. And I thought we were speaking about webcasts.


Ok Pero ... maybe there were two discussions in one !

:thumbsup:
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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Mon May 30, 2011 9:35 pm

My question basically was/is that since it is all right not to have a teacher there in person but it is enough to hear his voice and see his form via TV/computer, why would not a record of it be the same? And if digitally there is no difference at all between recorded and live - there isn't - whatever is communicated is either what is seen and heard or it is not. If it is communicated through perceptible means a record is as good as live. If it is not communicated through anything perceptible then what and how is it?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Mon May 30, 2011 10:42 pm

Astus wrote:My question basically was/is that since it is all right not to have a teacher there in person but it is enough to hear his voice and see his form via TV/computer, why would not a record of it be the same? And if digitally there is no difference at all between recorded and live - there isn't - whatever is communicated is either what is seen and heard or it is not. If it is communicated through perceptible means a record is as good as live. If it is not communicated through anything perceptible then what and how is it?


Hello Astus,

there is no "communication" as such, that means there is no transfere of something, or some kind of energy flowing out of master's mind. As Namdrol said it's a synchronization, in the present. And the personne you ear and see is only in the present on a life process, not on a record.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby adinatha » Mon May 30, 2011 11:09 pm

In the instance of NN's direct introductions and lungs, live participation is absolutely required. The sound is not the only ingredient. There must be simultaneity of time.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Mon May 30, 2011 11:09 pm

ChNNR once said you can have transmissions from live webcasts but not replays and recordings. He said I can span space in this world but not time for that purpose. Like people sitting outside a full temple (as in recent popular Rinchen Terzods) and getting lungs from outside speakers at the back of the crowd in the courtyard without being able to see the lama. Same principle, different scales. Also I have to get into a certain state and it's good for you to at least intend to get into the guru's state too (as in guru yoga) so for this reason it has to be at the same time (concurrent) but location is not relevant (his powerful intention & ability takes care of that). But if you are listening to Direct Introduction or transmissions of Lungs later from replays or recordings, then at that time I am not intending that or transmitting that or being in that particular necessary state. I could be in the 'toilet'! That's what he said.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Mon May 30, 2011 11:34 pm

What does synchronicity stand for in this case? If the teacher is in a particular state that in fact nobody else can sense or touch in any way how does that influence those who attempt to be in the same state? Or even if both teacher and students are in the same state how is that related to each other? What is the connection between the state of the teacher and the students if not anything perceptible?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Mon May 30, 2011 11:58 pm

It operates in the tri-kayas some of whose levels, each kaya has sub-levels, are within times and causality but ultimately dharmakaya is beyond. It's best not to worry about mechanisms and relax into specific instructions and be continuous (ie: yoga) & borderless with the world/our body/voice (incl. all energies)/mind and of course the guru's. Gradually things take care of themselves. Apart from doing nothing: relaxing conceptless into the flow of all senses (in & out without interruption) and not blocking or continuing/engaging/exchanging thoughts, our initial pure conscious intention to dissolve with the guru (later when solo: all gurus into one as is Ati's way) is the main catalyst and we are told various levels dawn by themselves. Apart from the session's pithy instructions which are secondary to intending and achieving instant presence anyway, conceptualizing or worrying about unnecessary temporal (synchronous/asynchronous) & causal clockworks are obstacles.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Yontan » Tue May 31, 2011 1:51 am

It's a worthy question:
Two people, one listening to a live transmission for an authentic guru, the other listening to a recording of an authentic guru, both told it was live... difference?
It seems to come down to the true meaning of lineage.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Jinzang » Tue May 31, 2011 2:03 am

I recall Tai Situ Rinpoche saying that for pointing out instructions the student must be physically present with the teacher. He was talking about mahamudra pointing out, but I assume he would say the same with dzogchen. So there are two schools of thought here. I'm in no position to say who's right.

I always analogize the situation to a doctor taking a patient's case. A doctor can take a written case, or take it by phone or video, but it is preferable to do in person, to ask the question and not only get the patient's answer, but how they answer. Do they hesitate? Does their demeanor change? Such things are important, at least in homeopathic case taking. If personal contact is important in the doctor patient relation, can it be any less important in the guru student relation?
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 2:13 am

Well, I'd say there's degrees on this Jinzang. It goes from the optimal to the minimum required. The optimal would be, perhaps, to have a close relation with ChNN, as some fortunate students have. The intermediate would be going to retreats whenever possible, clarifying doubts with Rinpoche and qualified instructors and also watching live webcasts to receive lungs and teachings, then studying the immense wealth of material available in DC. The minimum would be at least attending live webcasts, studying and practicing (and perhaps using e-mail communications when really necessary). It also depends on the practitioners capacity. The less capacity, the more guidance will be needed.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 2:30 am

I learned a very interesting thing I did not really know the other day reading one of ChNN's books. He said that sometimes people feel like they go get their transmission and their practice and go home thinking they are all set. He says this is not true and that in order to keep the transmission alive, the student and the teacher must work together otherwise the transmission is lost, I guess. This must be why I've heard of people talking about the need to "refresh" their transmission and working in the sangha and making sure to participate in ganapujas.

This was new knowledge to me that the transmission must be kept alive this way. And so now I have to make sure not to miss the transmission and keep paying attention to local sangha events. I wonder how those people "keep it alive" who have no Dzogchen Community nearby... if they are not actively involved in karma yoga or going to at least 1 retreat per year, the transmission must kind of "dry up" after a while, no? Please excuse my wording, I'm sure it's not that simple.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 2:44 am

I'll share a little from my experience, what really made me decide to go for ChNN (and the DC). I knew about the Dzogchen Community and the webcasts for some time, yet, as many of you probably think right now, it seemed a little too unorthodox for my taste. I was used to more traditional teachers and was satisfied with the way things were going. Nevertheless I came to a point in my life where I had a few interesting occurrences that made me interest for this particular teacher, ChNN, of whom I knew little about. Nothing extraordinarily noteworthy, but I shared, at that time with Namdrol-la.

A few years now I've been giving some time to practice and there was a time when I felt it had come to a halt. There was a time, after these events, that in my practice I was finding some peculiar inner obstacles and with time I realized they were becoming serious hindrances. It was easier for me to ask to teachers I knew better, whit methods I was more at ease and so I did, even if I had already decided to explore the teachings of ChNN. Anyway, I've asked around to a few teachers how to proceed, some well known and respected lamas (that I continue to see as my great teachers). I spend some time with the advice was being given, trying to overcome these obstacles, but I wasn't succeeding, even when doing exactly what I was told to do. I was a little concerned, I confess.

It was when I took ChNN's advice, for two times, that it worked like a charm. The obstacles were dissolved and I overcame those hindrances. There you have a case of real help to my exact needs. As you understand I won't go into details, but these obstacles were neither easy nor simple to explain. Yet, very simply with the right advice it was like pulling a string and seeing a knot untying by itself. This was the turning point for me. I need a teacher to do exactly that: giving me teachings that work when I'm in need for them. His methods and approach are by far the best I've tried. Perhaps not the best for everyone, but it works for me. So I'm happy where I am. :smile: I really don't mind to attend webcasts all year round and seeing my lama when possible. I don't have that many questions that I need to ask urgently and if needed I can always pick a flight to wherever he is teaching. Plus, Merigar is two days driving (a bit fast, though, but feasible) from Oporto (a little more than 2.000 kms). I can go there and to Barcelona very easily. London is a short flight. There's plenty of opportunities to see Rinpoche. What I am saying is that "electronic" or not, it has shown to work and in the end that's all that matters.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 2:47 am

Dechen Norbu wrote:It was when I took ChNN's advice, for two times, that it worked like a charm. The obstacles were dissolved and I overcame those hindrances. There you have a case of real help to my exact needs

Did you email him? I had some problems that have become serious hindrances to me, too, but when I emailed him, he said "you don't worry, you do your best. ciao ciao!"
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 2:50 am

So that's exactly what you have to do.
Notice that my problems were related to my practice, nothing regarding external conditions.

I'm sure this is not your case (really), but there are people who write to their lamas to know if they are allowed to learn how to play flute (this is real!). :lol:
Others write because they want to know if they should take this or that job or if such and such person are soul mates, others asking what practice should they do, and so on and so forth. Some ask questions that are not for the lama to answer.

Some questions are best answered like that: don't worry, do your best. Really, sometimes that is all there is to it. But you must be the judge of that. I can only talk from my experience.
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Re: Electronic Dzogchen

Postby username » Tue May 31, 2011 2:58 am

Root guru of Tai Situ, the glorious 16th Karmapa who saw everything unobstructed, recognized ChNNR as a great Kagyu tulku and later when ChNNR was an academic in Italy kept insisting he teach a sangha as is his great purpose in this life, offering one of his Italian Kagyu centers. Finally the terton & mahaguru ChNNR accepted saying OK but I will teach Dzogchen, new then in the west, and how I see fit. The buddha said that's fine and you know what to do best, all up to you. HHDL initially thought Dzogchen was too high for westerners but relented and now has his own English book of Dzogchen for westerners. ChNNR said but some Kagyus will say I took over your center and tradition and made it mine and into Dzogchen. Karmapa said we don't care what they say. And we still don't!

Also Tai Situ is doing a great job with the light of the world Orgyen Karmapa who took pity on miserable us and came back.
Last edited by username on Tue May 31, 2011 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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