Vajra Hell

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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:44 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:There are empowerments that won't be given to you unless you meet certain requirements. For instance, many teachers won't give you certain empowerments unless you have finished ngondro. Just an example.
Some empowerments require that you have already some degree of maturity in your practice and commitment. They are not to be taken lightly, especially when they deal with certain protectors, for instance.
I'm just naming some situations where you're expected to meet certain conditions, for your own sake, before you receive a certain empowerment. This is not difficult to understand and has nothing elitist about it. Before you run you need to learn how to walk, that's all. In some cases it's the same when it comes to empowerments. :smile:
Hmmmmmm... Look, for Ngondro, for example, there is no doubt in my mind that it produces the conditions necessary for your karma to ripen in such a way as to be able to access "higher" teachings. But again, all that is at play here is the "correct" causes and conditions coming together. I am sure that you have been at "closed" empowerments and teachings where seemingly irrelevant people turn up and... "Oh! A Hevajra empowerment! Can I please join in Mr Lama-guru-teacher, type person?" Asks the newb that hasn't even taken refuge.
"Of course you can!" Replies the (broadly smiling) lama that you have been leaning on for 10 years straight to give you the Buddha damned practice and he made you jump through 15 flaming hoops before finally giving it to you!!! :tantrum:
:smile:
As for the "run before you walk" deal. That was kind of shattered for me after reading the book "Masters of Mahamudra". Of course I can see the point in it, but... How do you know what the other person has been up to during their last 1500 lifetimes? How can you truly know if they already know how to walk or not? You can't! That' why, to err on the side caution, a lama will normally make you do ngondro. Just to be sure! But... ;)
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby In the bone yard » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:05 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Qualifications? Is an apprenticeship in carpentry a good enough qualification so that I can get the nature of mind pointed out to me or do I just need to have paid my membership fee to the respective club?
:namaste:

Greg, you must be master craftsman! :jumping:

All practices have as their ultimate goal (developing the qualities necessary to facilitate) pointing out the true nature of mind. Even "lowly" old Sutra practices. Now one may "need" "qualifications" in order to be given a certain practice, but really the only "qualification" one needs is the karma to be in the right place at the right time. And, if you take into account that all of us possess tathagatagarbha, what more do we need in order to get it pointed out to us? :shrug:
:namaste:
.

I think you have the answer: Karma. That is what we need. Not everyone has good karma so attainments are required (thank you Dechen!). Ngondro is good example.

Our blessed teachers have told us over and over that we need to stop reading so much books and go meditate. That is how we learn good karma. But when we meditate we do not practice merit aspect. We do not learn from our meditation. That is a problem. Reading so many books we are not ready for creates hindrance. We learn too much of what we don't need instead of meditating. No blessed master in the universe can meditate for us.

We have to meditate on the basis of good deeds. Work toward meditation outside just the sitting room. It feels good to do good and there's a reason for that. You must find good feeling of doing good deeds. Tonglen very important. Good is never so easy, but if it can be found it will make life easy. If we do the best we can we will not be dissappointed at the time of death.

If you are doing bad in the world, then meditation will be bad.

:smile:
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Dronma » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:13 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sönam wrote:Also I can agree with you in one hand, in another hand we have to be cautious about what is called a drug and what is not, what is good and what is bad and so on ... our answer should not be automatic.
Substances are substances ... and they are of many kind.


Gay sex/party drugs, now ubiquitous and used by some more adventurous heterosexuals (the cocaine epidemic of the 80's for example) are definite examples of a drug, a demon in physical form. Some of these substances are apparently used legitimately under some conditions. Well that's fine. But if the intention is to get high intentionally as the main purpose (or secondarily to enhance sexual pleasure, etc.) then it is misconduct.

Then alcohol - if one is addicted or wants to intentionally get drunk then it is misconduct.

Kirt


Well, I have to agree with kirtu. I don' t know about you, but people of my generation had been overflowed with any kind of drugs since the beginning of their teenage! Even today new chemical drugs are produced and distributed on the "free market".
So, this is a real plague against awareness - at least for my understanding!
About alcohol, some people say that it is even more dangerous than drugs....
But the most important for practitioners is to not misinterpret the teachings and be aware!
Because we always had and we still have serious conflicts about these issues in my place, I have transcribed some words of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu from his teaching in Crimea at 2010:

" Any kind of drug is very negative!
Some people say “drug is not so bad, because when I use drug then I feel spiritual path”.
Spiritual path is not bringing from drug! Drug is destroying your existence! Firstly your body, then your energy. ……
At the end your realization exploded by yourself.
………
Particularly in the Dzogchen Community, Gars and Lings, where there are Dzogchen Community practitioners, someone use drugs, you must not participate! Automatically that is forbidden in nature! Not we are doing a rule and we say “forbidden”. Because coming to the retreat and coming to the Gar and the Ling etc, for learning teaching, applying teaching, try to realize, not coming here for destroying oneself and creating problems for others. You remember this! This is something important for Dzogchen Community, also continuing. Not only here, but anywhere.
…….
If there is Dzogchen Community, there is name of Dzogchen Community, there must not be drug! Alcohol you can use only in Ganapuja! If you have no problem of alcohol, of course you have then capacity to control, of course you can use, you can drink. But you are not using these things for drunk. If you want to drunk then you forget Dzogchen Community! You forget your teacher and the teaching of Dzogchen! There is nothing to do. OK you remember that. This is something very important! "
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby kirtu » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:33 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:
kirtu wrote: (the cocaine epidemic of the 80's for example) are definite examples of a drug, a demon in physical form. Some of these substances are apparently used legitimately under some conditions. Well that's fine.


Don't know if I'm reading this correctly, but are you saying that cocaine has a legitimate use?


Apparently some versions of cocaine have legitimate psychological uses as Justsit notes.

Also apparently some uses of other substances have some legitimate religious uses in some systems. As long as the substance has a real legitimate usage by a professional at some level who themselves are acting properly , then I can't object. So this excludes most New Age activity (but not all) and normally includes most native traditions. It excludes all club drug activity.

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:40 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Hmmmmmm... Look, for Ngondro, for example, there is no doubt in my mind that it produces the conditions necessary for your karma to ripen in such a way as to be able to access "higher" teachings. But again, all that is at play here is the "correct" causes and conditions coming together. I am sure that you have been at "closed" empowerments and teachings where seemingly irrelevant people turn up and... "Oh! A Hevajra empowerment! Can I please join in Mr Lama-guru-teacher, type person?" Asks the newb that hasn't even taken refuge.
"Of course you can!" Replies the (broadly smiling) lama that you have been leaning on for 10 years straight to give you the Buddha damned practice and he made you jump through 15 flaming hoops before finally giving it to you!!! :tantrum:
:smile:
As for the "run before you walk" deal. That was kind of shattered for me after reading the book "Masters of Mahamudra". Of course I can see the point in it, but... How do you know what the other person has been up to during their last 1500 lifetimes? How can you truly know if they already know how to walk or not? You can't! That' why, to err on the side caution, a lama will normally make you do ngondro. Just to be sure! But... ;)
:namaste:

Yes, I have nothing against what you said.
But there are different ways to receive an empowerment. Some get the blessing and will never think about it again, so they've created a connection at most. Others get the permission to start practicing and others, more rarely, have the nature of their minds revealed. If the teacher you've been working with made you wait, he probably has good reasons (assuming he is a good teacher), even when the newbie is permitted to attend. For both this may be a very different experience.
However, I've been in situations where people were denied the access to the empowerment. And in situations where even a simple lung wasn't permitted to everyone. There were requisites and if these weren't met, the lama had the person removed from the room (very politely, of course) as it happened.
This protects both the lineage and the practitioner.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Paul » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:42 pm

undefineable wrote:
Paul wrote:Dudjom Rinpoche says it's from when you've taken an empowerment - nothing about having to have recognised anything for samaya to 'stick'.


Well when I took Refuge vows 8 years ago with Chogyam Trungpa's old companion Akong Tulku (at a branch of his Samye Ling centre) I thought I'd go along to a couple of empowerments too. They were (even) better attended than the refuge ceremony, and -to my memory- included no practice instructions, mention of vows etc., or even warnings. I think someone even said he'd planted a seed in us that need not ripen until future lifetimes.


I go to Samye Ling a lot. I was there a few weeks ago for the Medicine Buddha empowerment. I know that Akong Rinpoche says we can just take such empowerments as blessings, and can also take extra vows such as the pratimoksha vows at the same time. I would be keen to ask him what the situation is regarding samaya. If I remember correctly he said we can take it as a blessing or as permission to do practices, but I don't know exactly what samaya are implicit in the latter view. I take it to be the full root and branch, personally, but that is based on my own wish to keep those vows, the intention to practice and not being 100% certain they don't apply. I might ask him next time I am up there.

So far, I've just gone on what I read a couple of times, to the effect that empowerments are not always given as such, and need not be taken as such in such cases.


There are certainly many different levels and types of empowerment and samaya. The only way to be sure is to ask Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe or maybe Ken Holmes.
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Stewart » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:26 pm

Hi Paul,

I have known Akong Rinpoche for over 15 years, and lived at Samye Ling for 3 years...We may have met before :)

Rinpoche doesn't usually require a practice commitment when he gives empowerments. Rinpoche usually only gives certain empowerments...Amitabha and Medicine Buddha from the Namcho cycle, Green Tara from the Choking Tersar, Chenrezig from Thangtong Gyalpo and Guru Rinpoche from Konchok Chidu. These are the main practices done at Samye Ling and Samye Dzongs. Plus he also gives the reading transmission for the corresponding Sadhana at the end.

Akong Rinpoche oftens says that he leaves 'big' empowerments to other Lamas such as Tai Situpa, Mingyur Rinpoche etc.

Over the years he's given the occasional different one, such as Karma Pakshi or White Tara, and he used to give many long reading transmissions, I remember years ago he gave us the 4 medicine Tantras, Kunzang Lama Zalung and the Ngedon Dronme over a week!, but now not so much.

I was there last weekend, and Rinpoche gave an Amitabha/Amitayus Wang for everyone, but especially for people attending the Powa course with Khenpo Damcho later this year. The commitment he gave was that we didn't get angry with or criticize each other.

Anyway hope this info is useful, Akong Rinpoche is fantastic and has helped me immensely. May his life be long and his activity be free of obstacles!

s.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Jax » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:16 am

Regarding the main topic: Vajra Hell... Don't we have have to separate out mythology from reality. I remember a discussion I had with the Bon Lopon a few years ago. He thought if you squeezed a snake it's "legs" would pop out. I explained that was completely untrue. This is broadly believed by many Lamas as is quoted in their writings. Also many believe Mt. Meru is the center of the universe. Vajra Hell is another such fantasy. It's a control mechanism in order to keep peoples behavior in line, like eternal damnation in Christianity. Breaking samaya is a purely conceptual construction and the resulting karmic results are always 100% within the parameters of your own belief systems and conceptualization. Vajra Hell is a mind made concept, and is as empty as one's belief in the Easter Bunny. If samsara is taught to be equal to nirvana, then Vajra Hell is equally nirvana. Seeing the empty nature of samsara, reveals it to be nirvana. Realizing the emptiness of Vajra Hell, reveals Vajra Hell to be liberation itself. Self liberate all conceptual beliefs without exception, including your guilt at having broken samaya... Recognize and move on without regret.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Dronma » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:29 am

Jax wrote: Self liberate all conceptual beliefs without exception, including your guilt at having broken samaya... Recognize and move on without regret.


What a surprise!!! :mrgreen:
How do you mean "move on without regret"?
By killing, stealing, denigrating our teachers, causing suffering through our sexual misconduct, using alcohol, drugs etc?
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:33 am

Since clairvoyant perception is obviously a part of Buddhism (and many other religions), the only way one could know if hell dimensions exist or not, is by having clairvoyant perception. So said dimension's existence or non-existence wouldn't depend on what we believe or disbelieve, otherwise we could each create our own reality simply by believing whatever we want. Of course we can experience the hells right here in the physical, yet this doesn't automatically exclude the existence of them in other dimensions. The hells may be empty like everything else, however that doesn't mean that they're like a horned rabbit.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby deepbluehum » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:13 am

I don't agree with most of what is being said here. If a drug causes increase of illusions that is one thing. But if you can maintain presence during those illusions then it is just like accumulating merit. The mahasiddhas path is for a risk taking experimenter. Bollux the Lord of Limitations.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Jax » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:34 am

Dronma... You left out the first and most important word that began the sentence: "Recognize", then move on without regret. Recognize the "ego's action" as what it was. Notice how all actions are the play of the Dharmakaya. A murderer has an equal possibility of realization as a saint, as both are empty arisings in that which is always flawlessly perfect as is, your Natural State. Good and bad are equally empty constructions of mind. Dzogchen has no interest in obeying samayas or their being broken. All reflections are equal to the mirror.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Jax » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:42 am

Lhug Pa... All dimensions, deities, gurus, the six lokas, Vajra Hells etc. are projections of your own energy. Nothing exists outside of your own projections as tsal and rolpa. That being the case, you simply recognize the empty nature of your own projections and self-liberate even "Vajra Hell".
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby heart » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:59 am

Jax wrote:Lhug Pa... All dimensions, deities, gurus, the six lokas, Vajra Hells etc. are projections of your own energy. Nothing exists outside of your own projections as tsal and rolpa. That being the case, you simply recognize the empty nature of your own projections and self-liberate even "Vajra Hell".


When you get there you should give it a try Jax. If you want to try something similar I would suggest that you get drunk, take of all your clothes and run around in the city were you live harassing people. While close to freeze to death, or while being burnt by fire or just being mistreated in a holding cell it will be clear to you that the circumstances matter.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Kilaya. » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:24 am

This reminds me of a famous Zen story:

There once was a young student of Zen who studied under many different Roshi (Zen masters), by the name of Yamaoka Tesshu. Yamaoka changed masters again and called upon the training of master Dokuon of Shokoku. He wished to impress upon his new master his level of attainment. "The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist" he said. "The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no realization, no delusion, no sage, no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received."

The master, Dokuon, remained quiet and motionless, only smoking his pipe. Then, suddenly, he hit Yamaoka upside the head with his bamboo pipe. At this, the student got very angry.

"If nothing exists," inquired Dokuon, "where did this anger come from?"
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Sönam » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:00 am

Jax wrote: Vajra Hell is another such fantasy. It's a control mechanism in order to keep peoples behavior in line, like eternal damnation in Christianity. Breaking samaya is a purely conceptual construction and the resulting karmic results are always 100% within the parameters of your own belief systems and conceptualization. Vajra Hell is a mind made concept, and is as empty as one's belief in the Easter Bunny. If samsara is taught to be equal to nirvana, then Vajra Hell is equally nirvana. Seeing the empty nature of samsara, reveals it to be nirvana. Realizing the emptiness of Vajra Hell, reveals Vajra Hell to be liberation itself. Self liberate all conceptual beliefs without exception, including your guilt at having broken samaya... Recognize and move on without regret.


Of course Vajra Hell is a fantasy and a mind made concept, like samsara (and nirvana) is ... and then, what does it changes for you ?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:21 am

Again we see that to ignore relative truth in preference for ultimate truth is as supid as ignoring ultimate truth in preference for relative truth.

Unless one can remain completely aware in every moment the only thing they will do is accumulate (more) negative karma and head (for the million billion trillionth time) straight for the (relative) lower realms (again).

What a barrel of laughs reifying the ultimate must be!
:namaste:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Kilaya. » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:35 am

After a time, your tense, dualistic attitudes will evaporate and you will get to the point where gold and pebbles, food and filth, gods and demons, virtue and nonvirtue, are all the same for you - you'’ll be at a loss to choose between paradise and hell! But until you reach that point (while you are still caught in the experiences of dualistic perception), virtue and nonvirtue, buddhafields and hells, happiness and pain, actions and their results –all this is reality for you. As the Great Guru (Padmasambhava) has said, "My view is higher than the sky, but my attention to actions and their results is finer than flour."

So don’'t go around claiming to be some great Dzogchen meditator when in fact you are nothing but a farting lout, stinking of alcohol and rank with lust!

Dudjom Rinpoche
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:38 pm

This ^ :thumbsup:
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby deepbluehum » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:27 pm

It's amazing how far people will go to get outside of their box, climbing all the way up the yanas, just to remain a pushy mean judgmental preacher. Who cares what Padmasambhava said. This nature of mind thing is not some huge mystery. With basic instructions you can see it. Get to the heart of the matter and all this do gooder bs can go by the wayside. Get experience, not hearsay. If you have presence, you can pass out from drinking. Pass out with presence. If you are going to puke out your guts from drinking, puke out with presence. You can be on death's door with presence and recognize the clear light. If you have ten dharma men agreeing on dharmawheel, do the opposite. All these fools are just typical bland social conditioning masquerading as mahasiddha practice. If it sounds just like a Sunday preacher, cut off his head.
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