Vajra Hell

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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby padma norbu » Sun May 29, 2011 8:49 pm

heart wrote:There is the main reason for a mantra and then there is a auxiliary use for a mantra. Without the main reason you will not get to the auxiliary.
I think what you mean by this is that the goal of liberation comes first in a person's heart before he can expect any provisional results from a mantra, right?


Pero wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Now, here's an interesting thing. Pero says "there's no such thing as magick..."

I didn't say that. I said there were no magick fixes but you misunderstood what I meant. I suppose it would have been clearer had I said there were no quick fixes instead.

If chanting mantras we don't understand changes our mind, then what is that if not magic?

Oh it sure can change your mind. My point was just that you shouldn't expect to just recite some mantras a couple of times and bam your attachment to alcohol is gone. I mean, it's possible too, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.


Haha, neither would I. I didn't mean to give the impression that this is what I was expecting.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby heart » Sun May 29, 2011 9:03 pm

padma norbu wrote:
heart wrote:There is the main reason for a mantra and then there is a auxiliary use for a mantra. Without the main reason you will not get to the auxiliary.
I think what you mean by this is that the goal of liberation comes first in a person's heart before he can expect any provisional results from a mantra, right?


Never mind the order they come, one is crucial so this is where you should aim.

/magnus
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby padma norbu » Sun May 29, 2011 9:53 pm

Obviously. I don't know of too many people who chant mantras for wealth, etc. but in general auxillary benefits come first prior to liberation.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby heart » Mon May 30, 2011 5:22 am

padma norbu wrote:Obviously. I don't know of too many people who chant mantras for wealth, etc. but in general auxillary benefits come first prior to liberation.


How do you know that? Liberation is the greatest wealth.

/magnus
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby padma norbu » Mon May 30, 2011 5:28 am

heart wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Obviously. I don't know of too many people who chant mantras for wealth, etc. but in general auxillary benefits come first prior to liberation.


How do you know that? Liberation is the greatest wealth.

/magnus

Yeah. I was going to make a comment about a poor cave yogi, but I didn't bother.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon May 30, 2011 11:12 am

padma norbu wrote:Well, the way it was explained to me and what I was pretty happy with was the way it was explained to me by Lama Tsering Everest. She said breaking samaya is really something much more than personal failings. Breaking samaya means a change of heart, a rejection of the path, really turning your back on the path. So, you know, in the past, if I got drunk and woke up the next day feeling guilty, I would just tell myself there's no sense compounding my problems. Guilt is a useless emotion, just get back on the path.
This is the best piece of advice I have heard yet! The ego is a pernicious blighter and will use any means it can find to give itself "substance". Even making the decision that one is an alcoholic can then be used by the ego as a defining factor and a support to its existence: Who is an alcoholic? I am an acloholic. Who was a naughty boy and got blind drunk yesterday and puked on the gal that he was trying to impress? I was a naughty boy! Who needs a mantra/practice/ritual/substance to help them get over their problem? I need a mantra/practice/ritual/substance to get over MY problem... ad nauseum...

Why don't you try to seek help from those who can offer help (instead of the Buddha damned internet)? Instead of blowing all your cash on booze stay away from the pub/bar for a month save up your cash and go and see your teacher. Throw yourself at their feet and ask them to help you. If he turns around and says to you (again): "You don't worry, you do your best" (or words to that effect) at least you will have gone one month without getting blind drunk!
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby LastLegend » Mon May 30, 2011 12:12 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Well, the way it was explained to me and what I was pretty happy with was the way it was explained to me by Lama Tsering Everest. She said breaking samaya is really something much more than personal failings. Breaking samaya means a change of heart, a rejection of the path, really turning your back on the path. So, you know, in the past, if I got drunk and woke up the next day feeling guilty, I would just tell myself there's no sense compounding my problems. Guilt is a useless emotion, just get back on the path.
This is the best piece of advice I have heard yet! The ego is a pernicious blighter and will use any means it can find to give itself "substance". Even making the decision that one is an alcoholic can then be used by the ego as a defining factor and a support to its existence: Who is an alcoholic? I am an acloholic. Who was a naughty boy and got blind drunk yesterday and puked on the gal that he was trying to impress? I was a naughty boy! Who needs a mantra/practice/ritual/substance to help them get over their problem? I need a mantra/practice/ritual/substance to get over MY problem... ad nauseum...

Why don't you try to seek help from those who can offer help (instead of the Buddha damned internet)? Instead of blowing all your cash on booze stay away from the pub/bar for a month save up your cash and go and see your teacher. Throw yourself at their feet and ask them to help you. If he turns around and says to you (again): "You don't worry, you do your best" (or words to that effect) at least you will have gone one month without getting blind drunk!
:namaste:


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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby padma norbu » Mon May 30, 2011 3:07 pm

Hee hee, no I think I can manage. I have quit drinking for 3 years before and other times for over a year or several months. If I do really think I have a problem where I'm realizing, "holy crap, I have this incredible urge to drink and I simply can't control it!" then I will know for sure that I am an alcoholic and THEN, I will go and get a prescription for Naltrexone. I'm not going to beat around the bush with this crap.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby catmoon » Tue May 31, 2011 5:53 am

padma norbu wrote:
catmoon wrote:The previous post refers to Chogyam Trungpa and the gives a link to an article on Choseng Trungpa. These are two different people; in fact Chogyam was Choseng's predecessor.


Haha, I was referring to the fact that Choseng Trungpa is Chogyam Trungpa's reincarnation. This Choseng Trungpa is was born in 1980 and recognized by Tai Situ Rinpoche in 1991.



Aaaah yes. I did miss that reference.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 31, 2011 8:34 am

padma norbu wrote:Hee hee, no I think I can manage. I have quit drinking for 3 years before and other times for over a year or several months. If I do really think I have a problem where I'm realizing, "holy crap, I have this incredible urge to drink and I simply can't control it!" then I will know for sure that I am an alcoholic and THEN, I will go and get a prescription for Naltrexone. I'm not going to beat around the bush with this crap.
My dear padme, I am not saying you are an alcoholic, I would have to ask you a series of personal questions which are not for public perusal in order to do that (I am a qualified drug and alcohol dependency counsellor) but the fact that one drink always lead you to bingeing and getting blind drunk is definitely 100% problematic. I am not preaching, just pointing out the blatantly obvious.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 2:27 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Hee hee, no I think I can manage. I have quit drinking for 3 years before and other times for over a year or several months. If I do really think I have a problem where I'm realizing, "holy crap, I have this incredible urge to drink and I simply can't control it!" then I will know for sure that I am an alcoholic and THEN, I will go and get a prescription for Naltrexone. I'm not going to beat around the bush with this crap.
My dear padme, I am not saying you are an alcoholic, I would have to ask you a series of personal questions which are not for public perusal in order to do that (I am a qualified drug and alcohol dependency counsellor) but the fact that one drink always lead you to bingeing and getting blind drunk is definitely 100% problematic. I am not preaching, just pointing out the blatantly obvious.
:namaste:

I don't get blind drunk every time or nearly close. My situation may be 100% problematic in terms of Buddhism/Dzogchen, but is pretty common in society. "Alcoholism" isn't as much of an issue outside of America. For example, on England's advisory website for people who want to work in the states, they have a special section about American culture and alcoholism where they make a joke about what is considered alcoholism in American that says: "in other words, a typical Tuesday night for us."

Similarly, in Australia, its perfectly common and acceptable to get a buzz on almost every night of the week. Even in our own country, it is common for people to get a buzz on several times a week and drink every night of the week without considering themselves "alcoholics." That's the funny thing.

Like I said, I've quit before quite easily for a long period of time. It's just a matter of priorities for me that need to shift and I think they've shifted.

The problem in general could be summed up in a few observations about myself: a little bit of alcohol affects my judgement, I tend to drink a beer fast even when I'm trying to drink slow, a little more beer affects my judgement more, now I'm feeling good and have completely forgotten I want to stay mindful... also, this realization that getting drunk is really damaging samaya is a new realization for me and one that I was probably not really convinced about. It kind of came as a surprise and I don't think I was psychologically ready to never drink to excess again without "a few 'good nights' to go out with a bang." This was probably a subconscious thing.

It's a matter of bad habits learned in college and encouraged by society. Last Friday, for example, I said I didn't want to go out and was harangued into it. Then, I said I didn't want to go to dinner after the bar because I felt a little drunk, but I was dragged into that as well where more alcohol (harder stuff; sake) was consumed. Then, I got on the train bombed and went home to an empty house with nothing to do but sit around drunk off my ass at about 9pm, too drunk to enjoy television, but flush with happy endorphins and of course completely oblivious to my desire to stay mindful. So I went down the street to the bars to be with other people like me.

What's "blatantly obvious" to you actually has quite a bit more to it, imo. But, I don't any need help identifying my situation. As I said elsewhere, if I think this is going to be a problem, I will get a prescription to Naltrexone.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 2:34 pm

I think the most challenging thing is going to be coming up with a way to tell people I don't want to go out drinking without hurting their feelings or coming off like an alcoholic. I think after a few months of thinking about drunkenness as a very damaging thing that destroys mindfulness and samaya and shortens the precious human lifespan, then I will be able to have a beer or two with friends. The key is really only consuming about 1 drink per hour to stay mindful and I have to think of it like playing with fire so that I really pay attention to the time/drink ratio.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Pero » Tue May 31, 2011 2:42 pm

I think there are degrees of drunk. I doubt samaya is damaged if you have a beer or two and feel a buzz from it. I think samaya starts to get damaged when you lose awareness and don't know what you're doing anymore.
Anyway, you can always repair it, though that shouldn't be an excuse for drinking.
Also through experience I realized that trying to be be a practitioner and still getting very drunk is like trying to walk uphill while simultaneously throwing obstacles underneath your feet. Sure, you'll always get up afterwards but it'll take a lot more time to reach the top.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 31, 2011 2:48 pm

Two words to mull over: denial and rationalisation.

If after processing these two words you still feel okay about what you are doing and how you are doing it, then go for it!
:namaste:

PS If we did a quick survey amongst people here regarding the normality of this situation:
Last Friday, for example, I said I didn't want to go out and was harangued into it. Then, I said I didn't want to go to dinner after the bar because I felt a little drunk, but I was dragged into that as well where more alcohol (harder stuff; sake) was consumed. Then, I got on the train bombed and went home to an empty house with nothing to do but sit around drunk off my ass at about 9pm, too drunk to enjoy television, but flush with happy endorphins and of course completely oblivious to my desire to stay mindful. So I went down the street to the bars to be with other people like me.
You may find that the majority of people here would not consider this either normal or appropriate behaviour.

PPS What's with the constant references to Naltrxone? Why not Disulfiram? Either way it looks like you are looking for a quick fix to a problem you (now) claim you do not have.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 3:04 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Two words to mull over: denial and rationalisation.


See previous post.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue May 31, 2011 3:06 pm

Two words to mull over: denial and rationalisation.
This is a response to your other post.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 3:09 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Two words to mull over: denial and rationalisation.
PPS What's with the constant references to Naltrxone? Why not Disulfiram? Either way it looks like you are looking for a quick fix to a problem you (now) claim you do not have.


I was not aware of Disulfiram. I am familiar with Naltrexone because it has a huge success rate. I like the way you word things in the most probing way possible. It's pretty simple: if I determine I do have a problem, I'm not going to mess around struggling with it. If you don't know anything about Naltrexone, I suggest you look into it. Since alcoholism is a physical issue, that's what it addresses and is the most effective treatment ever. Pop a couple pills before you drink and blammo you have no urge to drink more than 1 or 2. After a period of time, Naltrexone can be discontinued (for raging alcoholics), but if they're going to go out and have a drink then they would pop a pill a few hours before hand.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 3:10 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Two words to mull over: denial and rationalisation.
This is a response to your other post.
:namaste:

I know. I'm telling you to go read it again. Consider it however you like. There is a sentence in there you need to read again. The second-to-last sentence, actually.
Last edited by padma norbu on Tue May 31, 2011 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby padma norbu » Tue May 31, 2011 3:11 pm

Pero wrote:I think there are degrees of drunk. I doubt samaya is damaged if you have a beer or two and feel a buzz from it. I think samaya starts to get damaged when you lose awareness and don't know what you're doing anymore.
Anyway, you can always repair it, though that shouldn't be an excuse for drinking.
Also through experience I realized that trying to be be a practitioner and still getting very drunk is like trying to walk uphill while simultaneously throwing obstacles underneath your feet. Sure, you'll always get up afterwards but it'll take a lot more time to reach the top.


Yeah, all things I've well considered although I may have not mentioned it, but it sure seems like I did.

I would like to stop this alcoholics anonymous meeting now.
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Re: Vajra Hell

Postby rach3l » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:33 am

I imagine it's like when the police come to my childrens school...In a friendly and honest way they explain the laws and answer questions explaining the importance of everybody living in a safe and happy world. :thanks: rachel. "good luck"
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