Vajra Hell

[pemachophel]

Jax,

Your theory sounds good. Recognize the suffering as empty and it's all good. However, in my experience, if you break samaya, you will experience suffering and you won't recognize. That's the problem with breaking samaya. Recognition is due to the blessings of the Guru -- exactly why Guru Yoga plays such a central role in the practice of Dzogchen. So, if you break your connection with the Guru and your karma ripens, you simply will not recognize.

If you think you are beyond suffering (as opposed to simply experiencing pain), stick you finger in a flame and see how long you can hold it there and whether or not you suffer.

Good luck and best wishes.

[Grigoris]

It's amazing how far people will go to get outside of their box, climbing all the way up the yanas, just to remain a pushy mean judgmental preacher... All these fools are just typical bland social conditioning masquerading as mahasiddha practice. If it sounds just like a Sunday preacher, cut off his head.

Just who exactly is the pushy mean judgmental preacher? Sounds to me like you are the (anti-)preacher.

Who cares what Padmasambhava said? I mean he was just a Buddha after all. Why listen to a Budha when you can be an overly boastful and deceitfully proud egoist right?

Flawed by pride,
you don't perceive the real-

you ruin every way
that you've ben given.

The whole cosmos
is deluded by meditation-

no one perceives
their innermost nature.

But who cares what Saraha says, right?

So liberated that they can't even see the golden bars of their cage.

[catmoon]

Tea and bikkies anyone?

[Malcolm]

Jax,

Your theory sounds good. Recognize the suffering as empty and it's all good. However, in my experience, if you break samaya, you will experience suffering and you won't recognize. :

No, this is not how it is explained in texts. When you break samaya, you will know.

However, when it comes to samaya, common human decency trumps all and any contracts with gurus. In other words, if you have to break "samaya" to act with common decency, pick common decency.

N

[deepbluehum]

The whole cosmos
is deluded by meditation-

no one perceives
their innermost nature.

What if you do? Then what? No limits.

But who cares what Saraha says, right?

So liberated that they can't even see the golden bars of their cage.

That's the whole game, casting aspersions. How vile am I? Tell me. I want to know how you really feel. Come into my rusty cage and tell me in my ear. I love it.

[Grigoris]

Not vile at all, somewhat deluded, I would say, but definitely not vile.

Anyway, it's not enough just to perceive ones inner nature, the whole game is staying in it. Now given I cannot stay in it 100% of the time then the best I can do is not accrue more causes and conditions for suffering. Hence Buddhist Groupthink.

[pemachophel]

Namdrol,

You will know what?

A) That you broke samaya
B) The awakened state beyond pain and suffering

[deepbluehum]

Okay. I know. That's what they all say. But remaining mindful is not so hard. I'm speaking to those who desire enlightenment so much it is as if you can't breathe unless you get your head above water. For some, enlightenment is so important, if they don't rest in the nature of mind, they will go mad, for sure. 100% When your practice gets to a certain level, not staying in the nature of mind is the vajra hell. Samsara is really stupid. Participating in samsara is like the apathy during genocide. If you are awakened and really care and love sentient being, then you cannot act like samsara is okay. Samsara is danger. The mind's nature is buddha. Buddha is the only refuge. Samsara is like a lake of poison. This practice of recognizing the reality and essence of yoga is the island. As soon as you go off that island, your dead. If you can practice like that, everything is purified and self-liberated and all merits is lhundup. If you believe in that, act like you believe in that. There is no way to go wrong if you stay with it.

[florin]

Okay. I know. That's what they all say. But remaining mindful is not so hard. I'm speaking to those who desire enlightenment so much it is as if you can't breathe unless you get your head above water. For some, enlightenment is so important, if they don't rest in the nature of mind, they will go mad, for sure. 100% When your practice gets to a certain level, not staying in the nature of mind is the vajra hell. Samsara is really stupid. Participating in samsara is like the apathy during genocide. If you are awakened and really care and love sentient being, then you cannot act like samsara is okay. Samsara is danger. The mind's nature is buddha. Buddha is the only refuge. Samsara is like a lake of poison. This practice of recognizing the reality and essence of yoga is the island. As soon as you go off that island, your dead. If you can practice like that, everything is purified and self-liberated and all merits is lhundup. If you believe in that, act like you believe in that. There is no way to go wrong if you stay with it.

You talk like you are very stable .Are you?

[mindyourmind]

Okay. I know. That's what they all say. But remaining mindful is not so hard. I'm speaking to those who desire enlightenment so much it is as if you can't breathe unless you get your head above water. For some, enlightenment is so important, if they don't rest in the nature of mind, they will go mad, for sure. 100% When your practice gets to a certain level, not staying in the nature of mind is the vajra hell. Samsara is really stupid. Participating in samsara is like the apathy during genocide. If you are awakened and really care and love sentient being, then you cannot act like samsara is okay. Samsara is danger. The mind's nature is buddha. Buddha is the only refuge. Samsara is like a lake of poison. This practice of recognizing the reality and essence of yoga is the island. As soon as you go off that island, your dead. If you can practice like that, everything is purified and self-liberated and all merits is lhundup. If you believe in that, act like you believe in that. There is no way to go wrong if you stay with it.

"This is the point where the display begins to manifest, and it feels pretty good. You are very open, you don't hate samsaric phenomena, and the will to practice grows even stronger. In fact, you enjoy samsaric phenomena, but you're free of attachment to that enjoyment, no longer chasing after it, hankering after it, wanting to hold it captive."

TSOKNYI RINPOCHE

[Malcolm]

Namdrol,

You will know what?

A) That you broke samaya
B) The awakened state beyond pain and suffering

That you broke samaya.

[padma norbu]

I've broken samaya and had no idea. My life didn't get any worse than usual.

[Dronma]

Dronma... You left out the first and most important word that began the sentence: "Recognize", then move on without regret. Recognize the "ego's action" as what it was. Notice how all actions are the play of the Dharmakaya. A murderer has an equal possibility of realization as a saint, as both are empty arisings in that which is always flawlessly perfect as is, your Natural State. Good and bad are equally empty constructions of mind. Dzogchen has no interest in obeying samayas or their being broken. All reflections are equal to the mirror.

Intentionally I left it out, Jax. Because when we "recognize", there is no need for killing, stealing, denigrating our teachers, causing suffering through our sexual misconduct, using alcohol, drugs etc.
Vajra Hell is included in Samsara like every God and Demon of the relative level of existence, a/k/a Duality.
So, yes, Samsara and Nirvana are inseparable as Padmasambhava said:

This mind has created both samsara and nirvana;
outside of it neither the one nor the other exists.

That's why the higher levels of Vajrayana and Dzogchen do not point to the goal of Nirvana, but towards the Great Liberation.
However, from our point of view, here inside this forum, there is nothing to be said about the Great Liberation that it has not been said before by the the Great Masters.
As beings who are still in Duality, we are always talking about relative issues inside the spectrum of Samsara and Nirvana.
For me, talking about the Absolute Level is totally stupid. Because there is nothing to be said....

[Grigoris]

For me, talking about the Absolute Level is totally stupid. Because there is nothing to be said....

Or everything that has ever been said and more!

[Malcolm]

I've broken samaya and had no idea. My life didn't get any worse than usual.

Then you didn't break samaya. To break samaya you have to know what you are doing. You have to be aware and not care. You have to be indifferent.

But as Jax says, in general samaya as commonly discussed in Tibetan Buddhism circles is just a social construct, a contract between you and a guru.

But what Jax did not say, and what he left out, was that real samaya is the comittment to discovering your own primordial state, and when discovered, maintaining knowledge (rigpa) of that state.

But in Dzogchen there are no specific rules or vows. It is all about being present, aware and working with circumstances.

N

[Grigoris]

I've broken samaya and had no idea. My life didn't get any worse than usual.

Then you didn't break samaya.

What if it can't get any worse?

[Dronma]

For me, talking about the Absolute Level is totally stupid. Because there is nothing to be said....

Or everything that has ever been said and more!

No, this sounds nihilistic !!!

[Dharmaswede]

Lhug Pa... All dimensions, deities, gurus, the six lokas, Vajra Hells etc. are projections of your own energy. Nothing exists outside of your own projections as tsal and rolpa. That being the case, you simply recognize the empty nature of your own projections and self-liberate even "Vajra Hell".

On the ultimate level. But if you do not are "there" (however you want to construe it) then this is a psychotic position. By that I mean an outlook which is not enlightened and which is mixing up outer and inner phenomena. "Simply recognize the empty nature..."??? I don't know how you use the word simple in this context, but what you are talking about is by no means easy.

I am not even a beginner in Dzogchen, but I know enough psychology to say that what you are writing is very disturbing.

I really really wish you the best.

Best Regards,

Jens

[deepbluehum]

By definition samsara is a delusion. Everyone is already diagnostically qualified insane. Realizing your primordial nature is primordial sanity. The consequences of realizing this can seem crazy from the standpoint of the delusional. There's nothing particular you want to accomplish, nothing particular on your schedule. You can give up being a busy go getting capitalistic hungry ghost. You really study the nectar of laziness.

[Dronma]

By definition samsara is a delusion. Everyone is already diagnostically qualified insane. Realizing your primordial nature is primordial sanity. The consequences of realizing this can seem crazy from the standpoint of the delusional. There's nothing particular you want to accomplish, nothing particular on your schedule. You can give up being a busy go getting capitalistic hungry ghost. You really study the nectar of laziness.

It sounds provocatively poetic.
And I like the structure:
"There's nothing particular you want to accomplish, nothing particular on your schedule.
You can give up being a busy go getting capitalistic hungry ghost."
But you spoil it with the last word "laziness".
Since language is a tool of relative dualistic perception, you must be a real maestro for transforming it to a thunder...
Although English is not my language, I would say:
"You really study the nectar of non-action."