Mind/Rigpa and body relation

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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 2:08 pm

muni wrote:
Awareness with an added word. Like Selfsprung Awareness, Pristine Awareness, 'inner Pure Awareness and Knowledge', and other to express completedness.


I know what Sogyal says, and translating rig pa as "awareness" is passe.

Further, just as a simple point of Tibetan grammar, rang gi rig pa means "one's own rigpa", not self-awareness.

rang byung rigpa means "knowledge that comes from oneself i.e. it is based on one's own direct experience.

Ye shes is normally translated as wisdom or primordial wisdom, but some people these days, following John Pettite and Richad Baron are liking primordial awareness for this.

I back translate rigpa in Sanskrit generally, as vidyā unless it is being used as a verb "to know". Adriano Clemente has stopped translating it altogether, which I approve of. However, since we use terms like dharmakāya, etc., for Buddhist Dzogchen texts at any rate, vidyā is another word that is preferable.

On the other hand, we are still very much in the experimental stage and every translator and and so on has their own ideas based on what they understand about the teachings.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu May 26, 2011 2:41 pm

Tashi delek, :)

Yes the term Rigpa, is a very difficult word to translate, sure when it is related to Awareness.
Also is it clear that Rigpa could also be inteligence, that was also one of my earlier suggestion.

Best wishes
KY



RIGPA RELATED WORDS

rig stong rjen-pa - naked empty Awareness
rig stong dbyer-med - the inseparability of awareness and emptiness

rig-pa
1. Awareness, immediate Awareness, intrinsic Awareness, the state of contemplation, vidya;
2. intelligence



rig-pa ngo-sprod - direct introduction to intrinsic Awareness
rig-pa gcer-bu - naked Awareness
rig-pa gcer mthong - seeing with naked Awareness
rig-pa rjen-pa - naked Awareness
rig-pa dbyings kyi sgron-ma - the lamp of the dimension of Awareness
rig-pa tshad pheb kyi snang-ba - the vision of the increasing to the full measure of Awareness
rig-pa 'dzin-pa - vidyadhara, knowledge-holder
rig-pa'i khu-byug - the cockoo of Awareness
rig-pa'i rtsal - the potentiality of Awareness, the creative energy of Awareness
rig-pa'i rtsallhung-ba - fall into the potentiality of Awareness
rig-pa'i ye-shes - the knowledge which is immediate Awareness
rig-pa'i zang-thal - directly penetrating Awareness
rig-pa zang-thal gyi ngang - the state of directly penetrating Awareness
rig-pa rang gnas - self-sustaining immediate Awareness
rig-ma - a consort, a female partner for tantric practice
rig-'dzin – Vidya-dhara
rig-'dzin brda brgyud - the symbolic transmission of the Vidya-dharas
rig shes - a knowing awareness
rig gsal - clear awareness, awareness and clarity
rig gsal dbyer-med - the inseparability of awareness and clarity
Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Thu May 26, 2011 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Thu May 26, 2011 3:09 pm

Namdrol wrote:
muni wrote:
Awareness with an added word. Like Selfsprung Awareness, Pristine Awareness, 'inner Pure Awareness and Knowledge', and other to express completedness.


I know what Sogyal says, and translating rig pa as "awareness" is passe.

Further, just as a simple point of Tibetan grammar, rang gi rig pa means "one's own rigpa", not self-awareness.

rang byung rigpa means "knowledge that comes from oneself i.e. it is based on one's own direct experience.

Ye shes is normally translated as wisdom or primordial wisdom, but some people these days, following John Pettite and Richad Baron are liking primordial awareness for this.

I back translate rigpa in Sanskrit generally, as vidyā unless it is being used as a verb "to know". Adriano Clemente has stopped translating it altogether, which I approve of. However, since we use terms like dharmakāya, etc., for Buddhist Dzogchen texts at any rate, vidyā is another word that is preferable.

On the other hand, we are still very much in the experimental stage and every translator and and so on has their own ideas based on what they understand about the teachings.

N


Yes, the word what can help the most clear to express its' meaning, is what one can apply. No idea make wholes in "naked awareness", a word of Lama Surya Das.

I don't choose in words as academical/languages' depth is not changing selfrevealing nature. Still in translation you do the best for all to help all interested. And no doubt; you do that without selfinterest.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 3:12 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:[color=#0080FF]Tashi delek, :)

Yes the term Rigpa, is a very difficult word to translate, sure when it is related to awareness.
Also is it clear that Rigpa could also be inteligence, that was also one of my earlier suggestion.


In my opinion, translating rigpa as "awareness" is simply wrong. Intelligence is also not good, again IMO.

In this case, knowledge is best. Why? Because rigpa is opposite to ma rig pa. Knowledge is the opposite of ignorance.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu May 26, 2011 3:19 pm

Tashi delek, :)

Coming back on Rigpa in the sense of Rigpai Yeshes.

- rig-pa'i ye-shes - the knowledge which is immediate Awareness

- Can one compare this Knowledge with the self illuminating Wisdom whch is aware of itself?
- It seems to originate out of the Base / Zhi, when abiding in the Natural State, when i understood it well .....


Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 3:20 pm

muni wrote:Yes, the word what can help the most clear to express its' meaning, is what one can apply. No idea make wholes in "naked awareness", a word of Lama Surya Das.


IMO opinion the word "vidyā" does not mean "awareness", as I have explained. The term "shes pa" can mean awareness depending on context. It can also mean "to recognize" depending on whether it is being used as a noun or a verb.

Having translated and read thousands of pages of Dzogchen texts, I am very dissatisfied with the use of awareness for rigpa. It should be deprecated, like HTML 1.0.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 26, 2011 3:22 pm

People just need to understand the translations depending on what the context of the lama's teaching is, then look into important words for themselves in sanskrit/tibetan if possible/ if their interest allows. awareness may not be a perfect translation of "rigpa" in the dzogchen context but it is tedious for translators to say primordial awareness every time for rigpa. Honestly, Namdrol you are quick to critisize if you don't agree with the translation of such and such lama or translator but I never saw you say anything about Namkhai Norbu's translation of rigpa as "presence" which is really a lackluster tranlation, many will agree. Rigpa is a direct perception of dharmata (ultimate truth), it is an awareness of the ultimate, not of a relative object (mngon sum) not just a presence anyone can be present and not be in rigpa that is just ordinary mindfullness. Again for all you Namkhai Norbu students, I am not trying to critisize him- I like him- and I realize that lama's can translate things loosely to lead their students in many ways. But since this is a discussion about the exact correctness of translations of rigpa- I had to bring it up.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 3:22 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek, :)

Coming back on Rigpa in the sense of Rigpai Yeshes.

- rig-pa'i ye-shes - the knowledge which is immediate Awareness

- Can one compare this Knowledge with the self illuminating Wisdom whch is aware of itself?
- It seems to originate out of the Base / Zhi, when abiding in the Natural State, when i understood it well .....


Best wishes
KY


rig pa'i ye she, the wisdom of knowledge.

This wisdom only arises after there is recognition of the basis and the knowledge of the basis that ensues from that recognition.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 3:24 pm

tamdrin wrote:...but I never saw you say anything about Namkhai Norbu's translation of rigpa as "presence" which is really a lackluster tranlation, many will agree.



He does not translate rigpa as presence, as I have explained before. The word he is translating for presence is dran pa, mindfulness.

The word he uses for rig pa is knowledge.

Why do I know this? Because I frequently follow him with the Tibetan text he is teaching in hand.

But I am not saying that knowledge is the best translation for rig pa in general because he is using it. It is because I have been reading Dzogchen texts for 20 years and finally concluded on my own that "knowledge" was best.

N
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu May 26, 2011 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby tamdrin » Thu May 26, 2011 3:26 pm

Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:...but I never saw you say anything about Namkhai Norbu's translation of rigpa as "presence" which is really a lackluster tranlation, many will agree.



He does not translate rigpa as presence, as I have explained before. The word he is translating for presence is dran pa, mindfulness.

The word he uses for rig pa is knowledge.



While many of his other students who post around here think that he does translate rigpa as presence. Again awareness can be of relative objects (i.e. being aware of some object).. knowledge can also be of relative objects, having knowledge of such and such field of knowledge.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu May 26, 2011 3:30 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek, :)

Yes the term Rigpa, is a very difficult word to translate, sure when it is related to awareness.
Also is it clear that Rigpa could also be inteligence, that was also one of my earlier suggestion.


In my opinion, translating rigpa as "awareness" is simply wrong. Intelligence is also not good, again IMO.

In this case, knowledge is best. Why? Because rigpa is opposite to ma rig pa. Knowledge is the opposite of ignorance.

N



[color=#0080FF]Tashi delek, :)

Rigpa in the sense of intelligence, could be equal to knowledge and this is the oposite to no intelligence,

But i cannot help it that many Geshelas, Khenpos, Lopons, Rinpoches etc. maintain the meaning of Awareness when in the Natural State as a word to express Rigpa
So before that State of Awareness Rigpa has a meaning and Rigpa has it during the State of Awareness.
Awareness is there, then the notion of self is seen as one and without knowledge of that but more being Aware of that State.

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 3:37 pm

tamdrin wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:...but I never saw you say anything about Namkhai Norbu's translation of rigpa as "presence" which is really a lackluster tranlation, many will agree.



He does not translate rigpa as presence, as I have explained before. The word he is translating for presence is dran pa, mindfulness.

The word he uses for rig pa is knowledge.



While many of his other students who post around here think that he does translate rigpa as presence. Again awareness can be of relative objects (i.e. being aware of some object).. knowledge can also be of relative objects, having knowledge of such and such field of knowledge.


In this case, he is using the term rig pa to describe one's knowledge of the basis i.e. essence, nature and energy/compassion. When you have that knowledge (vidyā/rig pa) you no longer wander in samsara. When you do not have that knowledge (avidyā,ma rig pa) then you wander in samsara endlessly.

As far as what other people may say who do not know Tibetan, and do not follow his teachings with text in hand, all I can say is that they are mistaken.

Sometimes Rinpoche will translate "shes pa skad gcig ma" as "instant presence", because this uncontrived momentary awareness is the basis of tregchö etc. Then in this case one uses mindfulness as a support for uncontrived momentary awareness do that you do not wander in distraction. In this respect, there is basically difference between mahāmudra meditation, dzogchen and the Sakya "khordey yerme" i.e. the view of inseparability of samsara and nirvana -- they all are talking about the same thing in this respect tha mal gyi shes pa so called "ordinary mind" or "basis awareness".

But rigpa is something else. Rigpa is the knowledge of your state. When you have recognized uncontrived momentary awareness, the knowledge that ensues from recognition is rigpa. When you have recognized the meaning of sound, lights and rays, the knowledge that ensues from recognition is rigpa. Why, because you are no longer in a state of ignorance. The opposite of ignorance is knowledge. The opposite of ma rig pa is rig pa, the opposite of avidyā is vidyā.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 3:41 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Rigpa in the sense of intelligence, could be equal to knowledge and this is the oposite to no intelligence,


The opposite of intelligence is absence of intelligence or in this sense, the insentient, the inert.


But i cannot help it that many Geshelas, Khenpos, Lopons, Rinpoches etc. maintain the meaning of Awareness when in the Natural State as a word to express Rigpa


Sure, they do. They are not native English speakers. Not their fault. They do the best they can. The reason every one in the bon po world uses awareness is mainly due to John Reynolds.

But now more and more people are moving away from that translation, in the Buddhist world at any rate.

The bon world is much smaller, and therefore, it will more resistant to change. Also fewer western translators.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 3:45 pm

tamdrin wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
tamdrin wrote:...but I never saw you say anything about Namkhai Norbu's translation of rigpa as "presence" which is really a lackluster tranlation, many will agree.



He does not translate rigpa as presence, as I have explained before. The word he is translating for presence is dran pa, mindfulness.

The word he uses for rig pa is knowledge.



While many of his other students who post around here think that he does translate rigpa as presence. Again awareness can be of relative objects (i.e. being aware of some object).. knowledge can also be of relative objects, having knowledge of such and such field of knowledge.


Also rig pa can mean knowledge. As a verb, it means "to know" when it is used as a verb in Tibetan, never "to be aware". Then there is the rig gnas lnga i.e. the five sciences, the pañcavidyāsthana.

The use of the term vidyā as the opposite of avidyā is very deliberate in Dzogchen texts and relates to the beginning of the cycle of dependent origination. When Samantabhadra knew his own state, the chain of dependent origination, which begins with ignorance, never started for him.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu May 26, 2011 3:57 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek, :)

Coming back on Rigpa in the sense of Rigpai Yeshes.

- rig-pa'i ye-shes - the knowledge which is immediate Awareness

- Can one compare this Knowledge with the self illuminating Wisdom whch is aware of itself?
- It seems to originate out of the Base / Zhi, when abiding in the Natural State, when i understood it well .....


Best wishes
KY


rig pa'i ye she, the wisdom of knowledge.

This wisdom only arises after there is recognition of the basis and the knowledge of the basis that ensues from that recognition.


Tahsi delek :)

See in in another following order.
At first learning and studying the Dzogchen (Rigpa = Inteligence). Then practice like Kordo Rushan etc. and the Natural State.
Then Awareness comes with the 4 visions related to the lamps. This experience cannot be seen as based on knowledge.
Would there be a certain self? According the Ponlop etc. yes because that Awareness is never seen by another one.
Well then one aspect which is experienced will be the self-originated Wisdom and also the rays, lights , sounds, radiance
It seems to emerge like a thought does. This Wisdom shows the emptiness how it is, like empty.


Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 4:04 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek, :)

Coming back on Rigpa in the sense of Rigpai Yeshes.

- rig-pa'i ye-shes - the knowledge which is immediate Awareness

- Can one compare this Knowledge with the self illuminating Wisdom whch is aware of itself?
- It seems to originate out of the Base / Zhi, when abiding in the Natural State, when i understood it well .....


Best wishes
KY


rig pa'i ye she, the wisdom of knowledge.

This wisdom only arises after there is recognition of the basis and the knowledge of the basis that ensues from that recognition.


[color=#0080FF]Tahsi delek :)

See in in another following order.
At first learning and studying the Dzogchen (Rigpa = Inteligence). Then practice like Kordo Rushan etc. and the Natural State.
Then Awareness comes with the 4 visions related to the lamps. This experience cannot be seen as based on knowledge.



People are aware of the four lamps all the time without knowing (avidyā, ma rig pa) what they are. We all have eyes, channels, inner dimension and outer space and these four always produce wisdom appearances whether we know what they are or not.


It is only when they know (vidyā, rig pa) what they are and how to use them in practice, that wisdom develops or rather, is unveiled.

But you see, the reason why when this type of practice is presented to people, we always start with describing the basis. So they will understand the difference between vidyā and avidyā.

Conversations like these remind me of why it is useless to have them. I have my idea, you all have yours, and never the twain to meet.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu May 26, 2011 4:11 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Rigpa in the sense of intelligence, could be equal to knowledge and this is the oposite to no intelligence,


The opposite of intelligence is absence of intelligence or in this sense, the insentient, the inert.


But i cannot help it that many Geshelas, Khenpos, Lopons, Rinpoches etc. maintain the meaning of Awareness when in the Natural State as a word to express Rigpa


Sure, they do. They are not native English speakers. Not their fault. They do the best they can. The reason every one in the bon po world uses awareness is mainly due to John Reynolds.



Tashi delek
Well i did met John a few years ago in Germany for the first time. He was together with our H.E. Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche or also Lopon la for his students.
He was before engaged in the center of Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, but still a few years inside Bon.

Seems to be a competent man but one can see he is American not only because of his Stamton. He knows alot about Indian Dzogchen as well Bon Zhang Zhung Nyengyud Dzogchen. Ok it is all a personal case of course and like always everybody has friends and enemies, like in the case with Mr. Ole from Danmark.

But if the Lopons take over a word without knowing that word, that is what i doubt......

Best wishes
KY





N
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 4:13 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
But if the Lopons take over a word without knowing that word, that is what i doubt......



That is what Achard accuses ChNN of doing.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu May 26, 2011 4:22 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
But if the Lopons take over a word without knowing that word, that is what i doubt......



That is what Achard accuses ChNN of doing.

N



Tashi delek, :)

Only relation between Lopon La and ChNN would be that last mentioned would have got some Bon Dzogchen teachings.
But he is also not a lineage holder within the Bon Tradition.

If JLA could prove his case then what would be the result?
I guess that there must be a close relation with Lopon La and ChNN otherwise not such a special Bon ZZNG Dzogchen teaching......

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 4:29 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
If JLA could prove his case then what would be the result?
[/color]


As i have explained, Achard is wrong. ChNN does not translate rigpa as "presence".

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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