Mind/Rigpa and body relation

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Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Merely Labeled » Sat May 21, 2011 4:59 am

I have a question concerning (let`s call it ) the process of recognizing Rigpa:

Could it be that having recognized Rigpa and training in it has consequences at the physical (body) level which then might be experienced as what is commonly called `illness` or `psychosomatic disorders` ?

This would mean that the body has its own way to deal with the transformation of one`s mind and this might be at times experienced in a literally painful way ?

M.L.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby ngodrup » Sat May 21, 2011 7:14 am

I don't believe there's any scriptural basis for what you describe.

Dzogchen *practitioners* often have significant obstacles,
but I think that's anther phenomenon. Once one has recognition
the problems have to do with undoing habits of non-recognition--
the tenacity of the status quo. That can show up in quite a variety
of ways. Seems one factor is the depth of the preliminary practices,
i.e. the depth of the purification and the degree of mental pliancy.
It's easier for those who are well prepared.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sat May 21, 2011 12:40 pm

Generally, illness has more to do with conceptual mind's fixation on the body... Very often in Dzogchen instruction manuals (triyig) the author will make some comments about this and mention that an additional benefit of certain rushen practices is the pacification of illnesses due to the purification of such fixation with the material body. But I'm no Dzogchen expert, even intellectually, so I can't definitively say no to what you proposed.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Merely Labeled » Sun May 22, 2011 11:43 am

I am a physician myself so after having applied various medical evaluation techniques I can say that the heart ache I experience in times of distress is what one calls a psychosomatic disorder.

The point is that since I train in the simpliest of Dzogchen practices (I am a beginner in Dzogchen since 6 months only and spent years with preliminaries, which were probably much to un-specific for Dzogchen) I kind of experience the deluded state which I am in in 99,9 % of time much stronger than before and I see this as a source of distress. Before that I was just blind to my deluded state most of the time :roll:

This would correlate with what ngodrup says `Once one has recognition
the problems have to do with undoing habits of non-recognition`.

Yes, and I do not know what makes me think that I `have recognition`.
This would be another topic to discuss. :rolling:

Pema Rigdzin wrote `Generally, illness has more to do with conceptual mind's fixation on the body`.
Interesting. I have to think about this.

Thank you,

M.L.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Sun May 22, 2011 1:10 pm

Bodies are only by dependency. in that way pure appearing.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Merely Labeled » Wed May 25, 2011 3:17 am

Am re-reading Reginald Ray`s `Secret of the Vajra World` and came across what I was trying to describe in my posts above:

" The lessening of discursiveness (through practice meditation)is usually experienced with great relief.
However the growing awareness of the level of chaos in one`s mind is sometimes extraordinarily painful.
It is as if the anesthetic of our habitual ignorance is beginning to wear off and we begin to feel the actual disease more acutely."

By the way, the heart ache is gone. To non-stop see the turbulent currents of the mind is still very unpleasant and I accept that it will stay this way for quite a long time. It is progress, though :thumbsup:

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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Wed May 25, 2011 6:55 am

Merely Labeled wrote:Am re-reading Reginald Ray`s `Secret of the Vajra World` and came across what I was trying to describe in my posts above:

" The lessening of discursiveness (through practice meditation)is usually experienced with great relief.
However the growing awareness of the level of chaos in one`s mind is sometimes extraordinarily painful.
It is as if the anesthetic of our habitual ignorance is beginning to wear off and we begin to feel the actual disease more acutely."

By the way, the heart ache is gone. To non-stop see the turbulent currents of the mind is still very unpleasant and I accept that it will stay this way for quite a long time. It is progress, though :thumbsup:

M.L.


Oh yes, this is a very familiar experience; however, it has to do with meditation involving conceptual mind, rather than recognition of rigpa. Such training, as in the cultivation of shamatha or concentrative stability, is probably a prerequisite to the doubtless recognition of rigpa for most people, though. And you're right, it is progress, because now you are aware of the condition your mind has been in all along. You're no longer in the dark about that, so it's generally really unpleasant even while it's a step in the right direction. But this is definitely distinct from the recognition of rigpa.

In rigpa, the observer and the observed naturally self-liberate so that although the apparent multiplicity of perceptions persists without anything being mixed up and thoughts may still arise, the experience of all this is said to be of one taste, and there is total freedom from objectification of anything or grasping or aversion or contrivance. This probably sounds cryptic, both because you're new to Dzogchen and because I lack the ability to meaningfully explain Dzogchen to anyone haha. But if you keep your interest in Dzogchen alive, listen to more and more Dzogchen teachings with masters like ChNN, and diligently apply the instructions, you'll definitely have some authentic experience of your own true nature, and it'll all be clear to you.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Wed May 25, 2011 7:32 am

By general listening and reading and talking one can get an "idea" of the true nature. This is not the same as by transmission when all dualistic fixation fade/disolve. So is me told.

Merely talking about, easely can turn to confusions and more concepts.

ps i am not saying this about "others words" but what is told to avoid ideas about.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Nosta » Wed May 25, 2011 1:05 pm

After all what exactly is rigpa? Whats the difference between rigpa and nirvana?
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Paul » Wed May 25, 2011 1:12 pm

Merely Labeled wrote:I have a question concerning (let`s call it ) the process of recognizing Rigpa:

Could it be that having recognized Rigpa and training in it has consequences at the physical (body) level which then might be experienced as what is commonly called `illness` or `psychosomatic disorders` ?

This would mean that the body has its own way to deal with the transformation of one`s mind and this might be at times experienced in a literally painful way ?

M.L.


There are two things that might be an issue. When learning Dzogchen meditation there is a specific meditation fault that possible, which is fear. The other is that negative karma can arise in a Dzogchen retreat.

There is also the issue of the subtle body, which should be helped tremendously by rigpa practice. The subtle body of many people, especially in Western societies, is somewhat damaged. As a result, they can be prone to wind/rlung disorders.

Read this if you're interested: www.buddhistmala.com/store/Lung.doc
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"Do not block your six senses; delight in them with joy and ease.
All that you take pleasure in will strengthen the awakened state.
With such a confidence, empowered by the regal state of natural mind,
The training now is simply this: lets your six senses be at ease and free." - Princess Parani
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 25, 2011 5:17 pm

Nosta wrote:After all what exactly is rigpa? Whats the difference between rigpa and nirvana?



Rigpa is just your knowledge of your primordial state.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed May 25, 2011 7:58 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Nosta wrote:After all what exactly is rigpa? Whats the difference between rigpa and nirvana?



Rigpa is just your knowledge of your primordial state.



Tashi delek, :)

Rigpa could also be awareness about the / "our" Natural State?

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 25, 2011 9:40 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Nosta wrote:After all what exactly is rigpa? Whats the difference between rigpa and nirvana?



Rigpa is just your knowledge of your primordial state.



Tashi delek, :)

Rigpa could also be awareness about the / "our" Natural State?

Best wishes
KY


There can be awareness without knowledge but there cannot be rigpa without knowledge. So no, rig pa is knowledge of our state, whatever adjective you wish to use to describe it.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed May 25, 2011 10:02 pm

Tashi delek, :)

- First how is knowledge seen of a State which is without recognizing or is more experienced in the sense of " self-iluminating "?
- So i guess that "knowledge" has the meaning of be aware of that State by study or by realisation of the Natural State which is without "knowledge" of that State.
So Rigpa can/ has also here above mentioned, the meaning of the knowledge which one must have to be able to regognize a certain degree in the Dzogchen Yogas / "meditations".

Further is English sometimes not good enough to make some usefull Dzogchen translations possible.


Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 25, 2011 10:07 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek, :)

- First how is knowledge seen of a State which is without recognizing or is more experienced in the sense of " self-iluminating "?
- So i guess that "knowledge" has the meaning of be aware of that State by study or by realisation of the Natural State which is without "knowledge" of that State.
So Rigpa can/ has also here above mentioned, the meaning of the knowledge which one must have to be able to regognize a certain degree in the Dzogchen Yogas / "meditations".

Further is English sometimes not good enough to make some uusefull Dzogchen translations.

KY


Knowledge comes from recognition. Without recognition, no knowledge.

English is actually a very good language for Dzogchen translations -- it is very precise.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Nosta » Wed May 25, 2011 11:43 pm

Why is it english very precise?

In fact, some languages seem to have lots of more words and that can increase precision on such languages :)
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Malcolm » Thu May 26, 2011 2:17 am

Nosta wrote:Why is it english very precise?

In fact, some languages seem to have lots of more words and that can increase precision on such languages :)



Because English has more synonyms than just about any other language in the world because of its diverse roots.

Also it is easy to create English words or adapt English words.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu May 26, 2011 3:11 am

Namdrol has a point here. Let me give you one example: mindfulness. It's a headache translating this word to Portuguese.
See how this word is formed: mind+ful+ness. You pick the word mind and it's meaning and ad the "ful". So, you have an adjective. Such person is mindful. Then you define the state of being mindful as mindfulness. It's really easy.
In Portuguese mind is "mente". But you don't have and adjective like mindful. You have to say that such person is attentive, and that isn't exactly the same thing, so to convey the same meaning you say such person has "presence of spirit (mind)". Now, how do you name such state, mindfulness? Or you use attention, and that doesn't have the same meaning or you simply can't do it. You can't pick the word mind, transform it in an adjective and then create a new substantive from this adjective like you do with mind, mindful, mindfulness.
This is one example among many. You can chose another like selflessness. Self, selfless, selflessness. There you have a word perfectly suited for its purposes. In Portuguese you'd have to say " the quality of the absence of self". As most of what I study regarding Buddhadharma is in English, sometimes I find myself thinking about it while mixing English words in a Portuguese reasoning. I've assimilated some terms in English so deeply that I don't translate them anymore.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu May 26, 2011 3:54 am

Whew.....
Last edited by ronnewmexico on Fri May 27, 2011 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Mind/Rigpa and body relation

Postby muni » Thu May 26, 2011 10:46 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:Tashi delek, :)

- First how is knowledge seen of a State which is without recognizing or is more experienced in the sense of " self-iluminating "?
- So i guess that "knowledge" has the meaning of be aware of that State by study or by realisation of the Natural State which is without "knowledge" of that State.
So Rigpa can/ has also here above mentioned, the meaning of the knowledge which one must have to be able to regognize a certain degree in the Dzogchen Yogas / "meditations".

Further is English sometimes not good enough to make some usefull Dzogchen translations possible.


Best wishes
KY

Tashi Delek!

Awareness with an added word. Like Selfsprung Awareness, Pristine Awareness, 'inner Pure Awareness and Knowledge', and other to express completedness.
Here Sogyal Rinpoche: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa :smile:
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